Legend has it that one of the roots of Valentine’s Day stem from a third century ban on marriage passed by Roman emperor Claudius II who thought married men made poor soldiers. A priest named Valentine continued the marriage tradition by marrying couples in secret, but was tragically caught and jailed, then put to death.
Thankfully modern-day tactics are not quite so severe, but 18 centuries later there remains tension between church and state in the regulation of marriage, most recently as it relates to gay marriage. Mormons of course are no stranger to the controversy as seen in their efforts for the passage of California’s Prop 8.
At the heart of the debate is what the marriage certificate actually means. Is it just a piece of paper or is there something more? What drove those couples to seek the help from Valentine all those years ago? Believing the paper and the name carries not only legal rights, but a history and legacy, people and organizations are working to change laws to recognize gay marriage. HRC has launched a new campaign of New Yorkers 4 marriage, gathering clips of celebrities including unlikely ally Barbara Bush, the daughter of George W. Bush.
While the chorus for marriage equality grows louder, the choices facing Mormons with these convictions is complicated. The church’s position toward the gay community has softened over the years, but its opposition to gay marriage remains steadfast. We see it not only in vaguely worded addresses during General Conference, but also political efforts. In fact, for the past 30 years no other issue has received as much of the church’s time, energy and focus in the political arena.
In 2008 I found myself between a rock and a hard place in terms of the Prop 8 debate. As the church took even greater strides to make this constitutional amendment a reality, I believed my silence to be approval and felt compelled to speak up for my gay brothers and sisters and for other Mormons who feel this way too. I made what I considered to be a compassionate video outlining my position and submitted it to Mormons for Marriage, a site dedicated to respectful dialogue about the issue. My motives were to speak for myself in the political arena according to the dictates of my own conscience. I wished the church no ill, and I made every effort to be reasonable and stay within my own stewardship. Looking back on the video 2 plus years later, I still do not know a more respectful way to have expressed my position, which is that the morality of homosexuality has nothing to do with this debate, loving others means allowing everyone the recognition and rights we wish for ourselves in expressing love and building families.
I did not discuss the video with my local leaders before making it public, but they were directed to it by church headquarters. At the end of some very heart felt discussions, my speaking out with this video threatened my temple recommend and my calling, and I ultimately chose to take it down to protect my standing in the church.
I have lived to regret the decision. And so today, in honor of the Valentine legend and in support of the love that drives so many of us to share our lives with each other, I stand up once more in favor of marriage, all marriage, with my Prop 8 video.
Thanks Mel.
Mel you are amazing… Great Article and personal interview!!
Brava!
Thank you for saying this publicly.
Mel: I think your video is a respectful and powerful expression of your feelings on the subject. It does my soul so much good to see people as brave as you, speaking up for what’s right, in your own voice. I fully agree with everything you expressed.
There could be no better tribute to love on this day!
It’s really nice to put a face and voice to your name :) I think your point about loving everyone, including a guy smoking a cigerette was a point well made… what I don’t understand is how sharing your true feelings in a video could mean that you couldn’t have your calling etc…
Well said!
Mel, you Rock.
So powerful Mel, thank you for sharing this with us.
Dear Mel, From all the gay and lesbian former Mormon community, a deeply-felt thank you. It is all about love, you’re right, and you may be interested in looking at the website for the Unitarians (UUA.org) who offer a warm welcome for those who love and marry those of the same sex and/or different races, different ethnicities and different beliefs.
You must keep writing even if you’re brought up before a Mormon kangaroo court. As we just saw in Egypt, recording oppression scares the oppressors and draws forward the freedom fighters.
Thank you,
Marilyn Mehr, Ph.D.
Marilyn – the Unitarians definitely have something to teach us! The Egyptians definitely give us rise to believe in the power of standing up, although sadly there are examples from history of the reverse. I think we have to decide what is right for us, a decision I wish I would have made 2 years ago based on what was in my heart rather than a consideration of all the possible outcomes. At the time, there was a big voice against Prop 8 and I thought my little video didn’t matter. It was a drop in a collective bucket, but I failed to consider how much it mattered to me!
Fantastic. Thanks for sharing.
Mel,
It’s called integrity and you have it by the bushel basket. You are my hero.
That was very well said in the video, and reiterated in your post.
In 1879, in the Reynolds vs United States, the Church took the position that marriage is a religious rite, and that government laws prohibiting polygamy were an unconstitutional restraint of the free exercise of religion. The Supreme Court, of course, disagreed with that logic. Apparently, the Church has come to fully agree with the Reynolds decision, because it sure rallied the resources to make sure that Prop 8 passed. I have no explanation for the inconsistency, other than things change over 129 years.
To your point, Mel, the people Jesus reached out to, and expressed concern for were the least among us: the sick; those in prison; the poor; and even lowly publicans, harlots, and winebibers. He came to gather all of us who are lost, and make us into one people. A key to making that happen is to recognize that are all of one flesh, and the children of our Father in Heaven. I can tell that you already recognize that.
Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled. Whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
“Things change” is probably the best explanation anyone’s given for the glaring inconsistency :)
I like your sentiment about reaching out to the “least” although I am troubled with the idea that the least are somehow less worthy or valuable than we are. I think least likely means least respected and has to do with our own limited thinking.
Go, Volcano Goddess!!
This is so beautifully said and presented, and so significant for Valentine’s Day. Thank you.
So wonderful and so powerful.
Mel,
What an awesome Valentine’s Day present you gave today. I love your video, I love you and thank you for your courage. Thank you!
Wow, threatened with a TR and calling yank, for this? Yours is the most mild and ‘in-tune’ video I have seen. But remember though, ‘they’ only have the power over you that you give them.
I learned the lesson about giving power hard way. I wasn’t surprised they didn’t like my video, but I was careful in my wording and tone to show respect and loyalty to the church, so I was surprised there was informal discipline threatened. It was interesting when I asked for what specifically about the video was troubling to the church and was told I said I was obligated to follow my own conscience.
Isn’t your own conscience another way of saying ‘the light of Christ’?
Mel, you’re amazing. Thank you and you’ve earned those wings. :D
Way to go, Mel. :)
Those who argue homosexuality is “natural” fail to acknowledge that revulsion against homosexuality is even more natural. Putting aside the natural man has implications for both sides, but surely does not require supporting or recognizing homosexual marriage.
Be careful that in your revulsion, you aren’t reviling against the truth.
Dave – I specifically don’t mention my own feelings about homosexuality in this post specifically because I don’t think it matters to this debate. Whether or not you support someone’s behavior does not determine whether you recognize they have the right in a free society to that behavior. Unless of course you’re willing to have others determine that the behaviors they find revolting about you now preclude you from some rights. I’m not willing to go there, particularly as a Mormon where my religion has been considered a cult by the majority for some time now, where my practice of having a big family is seen as overpopulating the earth, etc. etc.
Dave, the “revulsion” against homosexuality is completely man-made via pressures put on individuals by the powers that be (traditionally religious in nature). There are countless examples of natural homosexuality throughout the human and animal kingdom.
Actually, there’s nothing more natural than something you were born with, such as your sexual orientation. Bigotry — or having revulsion over the natural state of other human beings, whether it’s, for instance, their skin color, their disability, their gender or their sexual orientation — is not at all natural, it’s something that has to be learned. Children are born loving, not hateful; they have to be taught to be hateful. Good people who are raised in bigotry always overcome it at some point. Being born into an environment that taught you to persecute your fellow humans over their inate characteristics isn’t reason for continuing to do so. You can make a better choice.
Dave wrote: revulsion against homosexuality is even more natural.
Is it? Really? I’m straight, and I don’t find GLBT people revolting — any more than I find left-handed people revolting, or brown-eyed people revolting, or people of a different faith revolting.
What I do find revolting is bigotry.
I can your side of the argument here in a way, but I still disagree with you. While fear(revulsion) of homosexuality can be natural, it is mostly because it is different from what we have been raised to believe is the norm. And as she says, she never says what her views are an on homosexuality in general, she just believes they should have all the rights accorded to heterosexual individuals.
Dave, your personal tastes have nothing to do with other people’s rights — and who put you in charge of deciding what’s more natural? Oh yeah, God did. My bad.
That video was made of good. When you say that you’re a disciple of Christ, I believe you.
Happy Valentine’s Day.
I left the church a few years ago, but I have quite a few friends who are active and against the church’s stance on gay marriage, but won’t speak out publicly because they are afraid they will be disciplined. Thanks for having the courage to speak out.
God bless you. Happy Valentine’s Day.
It’s a decent video and I support your freedom of expression. Too bad you can’t show the same amount of tolerance for polygamists as for just about every other lifestyle on the planet.
PLJ – I agree that polygamy is a difficult thing for people to show tolerance toward. You could substitute polygamous for gay in my video and I would stand behind it. Happy Valentine’s Day.
Like you, I was a life-long Mormon. I served a mission, married in the temple, etc. But it didn’t take long before I began seeing things that confused me about the church. They had told me my whole life, “We don’t participate in politics… We are politically neutral… We encourage our members to vote, but don’t tell them how to vote…” Then in 2008, like you, I saw one of the greatest acts of hypocrisy in my life. And it didn’t take long after that, that I began seeing other inconsistencies in church policy, doctrine, teachings, and actions.
Let the cognitive dissonance continue to drive you. Soon you’ll be researching the many versions of Joseph Smith’s first vision fantasy, the anachronisms of the fictional Book of Mormon, and the non-existent events of priesthood restoration. Then what will be left for you to base your faith in Mormonism? Just another social club where all the members are commanded to act exactly the same, and say all the same things.
When you are ready, try a new approach to life.
http://www.postmormon.org
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/
For me: I don’t want a savior. I take responsibility for my own actions in life. And I intend to face whatever consequences result from those actions–whether there is an afterlife or not. I refuse to allow my life to be hijacked by those who pretend to claim authority over me, and demand my complete obedience. Therefore, I reject Mormonism, and I reject any religion that claims to offer salvation.
Eric – I respect your decision to leave as I would hope you would respect the decisions of others to stay. I think you could look at my use of Savior in the video and think of it less literally. The teachings of Jesus save us from separation with each other, they save us from ourselves.
But I definitely have determined that I am the authority in my own life. Should there be a judgment day (and I hope there is with salted caramels in dark chocolate served), I realized I don’t want to be pointing a finger at anyone else for why I made the decisions I did. Right or wrong, I intend to own them.
Thanks for the love everyone. As to being a hero, mostly I’m just a recovering chicken. I took the video down 2 years ago believing my actions were for the greater good of my family and religion, but found it was merely to protect myself. At the time, I was even afraid to discuss publicly the threats against my standing in the church. It’s one of the biggest regrets I have in my life. Putting it back up without the firestorm of the Prop 8 debate surrounding it just doesn’t seem so brave, but it’s a first step toward making sure I don’t make a decision out of fear again.
I’ve been thinking about fear as a motivator a lot lately. I was surprisingly touched while reading an interview with the actress Kristin Scott Thomas (The English Patient). She was talking about a recent run in a play and her almost paralyzing stage fright and she said, “It’s not butterflies in the stomach I get, but elephants.” The interviewer went on to ask her why she would put herself through that and she said, “I may be frightened, but I’m also very brave.”
Mel, I don’t think it is ever too late to be brave or do what you think is right and I agree with the rest — this is heroic.
I love this quotation. Thanks, Heidi.
I love your “recovering chicken” line. It’s perfect! You’re amazing for coming to the place you are now and reposting this video. Awesome.
Thank you for putting the video back up. That took courage. And thank you for speaking up about the rights of every individual. I’m always happy for anyone who finds someone to love. And I think marriage should be a right between two people.
I understand why you took it down in the first place. I might have done the same thing at one point in my life. But then I got tired of squelching my own beliefs and trying to justify things that I knew were wrong. I’m much happier now that I’ve left that behind.
Please keep speaking up.
Wow. Mel, that was a very good video. I am deeply impressed. Throughout my life in the church I saw many who were loyal members to the sect, but not many who actually were thinking of how to be loyal disciples of Christ. Would that everyone could share your point of view.
Never let fear stand in the way of what is right. Bravo.
Thanks for your courage, Mel. I’ve written a book which makes some similar points (http://bradcarmack.blogspot.com/2010/10/homosexuality-straight-byu-students.html).
Why stay in a church that threatens, or uses fear tactics on it’s own members? That spreads hate and calls it God’s will. I use to be a member, and even served a mission until I came to this realization. The reason given to me by an apologetic member was that the church is perfect but the members are flawed. This is all well and good until it is taken into account that without members there would be no church to call perfect. The members are the church and the leaders of those members are the ones held responsable to keep the church in high standing. Do you think the God that you were taught in primary would threaten you over exercising you right to free speech? These are the same people that recently stated that “we are doing this only because we are concerned about freedom of religion which is SECOND only to free speech” (not an exact quote mind you). A member of the the twelve stated this. See if you can spot the hypocrisy. Remember that without sheep there can be no shepherd. They need your servitude in order to give them power. I know that it can be hard to stand up for yourself but it is worth it in the end. Thank you for making such an inspiring video, and I hope that you are able to keep that free spirit which gave you the courage to do this in the first place.
Awesome! I felt the same way during prop8, but was too scared to say anything because I felt like I would have been reprimanded and rejected from my community/religion/heritage. You’re very brave for doing that!
awesome, girl. it is this threat that made me stop going to church, and my husband too.
you are so much braver than i am, and i love you for that. KEEP DOING IT. you have so much support out there.
From one Mormon Mel to another, thank you for your thoughtful video.
Mel
* A non-threadjacking note, included in the spirit of Mel’s post and many of the comments here:
If anyone feels inspired and would like to share a video of their feelings about the issues Mel spoke about, please do. We have the facility to hold our own ‘testimony meeting’ right here! You can add a video to YouTube very easily using a webcam, and then just click the ‘Embed’ button below the uploaded video you created, and copy/paste that code into the comments box on this (or any other D&S) thread.
Just in case!
I linked to you through Mormons for Marriage, and wanted to let you know I so appreciate all of this, and you give me courage for my own future, should I ever feel that I need to speak out, too. I love these words: “the morality of homosexuality has nothing to do with this debate, loving others means allowing everyone the recognition and rights we wish for ourselves in expressing love and building families.” It’s exactly how I feel. My only sibling, my little brother, married his partner this past November. I am so proud of him and so happy for them both. The love and happiness they feel should be available to everyone, because it’s love. LOVE. And the family I carpool with, the family with two moms, they are a family. And the mom who stays home is one of the kindest, most patient, most inspiring moms I’ve ever known. Love, family: I’m a fan. :-)
Like Emily, I am here via Mormons for Marriage. Thank you for standing up; it is never too late to do the right thing.
As I said over on M4M, outside pressures should never stop someone being their best self. Congratulations for turning in the direction of your own integrity and right work.
Thanks Melanie,
It seems there are so few people with the vision to see how far unconditional love actually goes. It’s limitless. And in a church that preaches unconditional love, it’s refreshing that you actually practice it — even against your own church leaders’ request. Keep up the great work. I’ll definitely be charing this.
-PJ
Dear Mel:
Thank you for making the video. In making the video you did the right thing.
I understand why you now regret both taking down the video and declining to talk about the pressure you had placed upon you by the church. In 2008 I was more aggressively anti-Prop 8 than your video and I stated my opinions related to Prop 8 why I didn’t think the leadership of the church deserved our respect on this issue. I helped set up a website, organized others to write letters and sign petitions, etc. and was threatened with excommunication for my actions. I didn’t remain quiet about the threat of discipline, in fact I did as much as I could to make a spectacle of it, and the church backed down. No church discipline. In fact, the spectacle of the media coverage concerning their threat of excommunication I’m sure played a role in the church one month later meeting with about 60 of us with petitions, flowers and letters asking the church to change its position.
During 2008 I knew of at least one other couple who lost both their temple recommends and their callings because they were not willing to shut up when they were told, and at least two individuals who were threatened as you were, but I never heard of how they reacted.
When the church uses threats and intimidation to stifle its members, that does not speak well for the church. The reason they do it, however, is that, as in your case, it usually works. Yours was a video, but I wonder how many others were told to stop talking to their friends at church and sharing an opinion that contradicted with church leadership. We will probably never know how many others were intimidated into silence, nor will we ever know what effect a few more people refusing to be intimidated might have had.
Thank you for coming forward now.
It is almost as if I made that video myself. I am also an active member of the LDS faith and I have the exact stance on the whole issue you do. I infact, have said the same things to people that you did in your video, verbatum. I, like you, am not afraid to stand up for what I think I think is right and no matter my personal stance on gay marriage, I do not think it is my place to judge. I teach my child to love others and I think it is very important to teach them to respect and learn about others beliefs so we can truly be Christ like. We just moved to a place where the church is smaller and with that often brings more extreme attitudes and I find myself constantly stating this opinion in meetings where it was a commonly shared opinion where I came from. I just hope we can all truly practice what we preach and realize that we are all just people doing our best to live good, honest lives. I can honestly say that my Uncle (who is gay) and my childhood friends (who are gay) mean as much to me as the ones who are not and that they are amazing, honest, hardworking people who deserve to have the same rights we do. Thank you for also standing up for what you believe in a respectful and kind way (which is difficult for so many people). You are fantastic and I wish you the best.
If LDS Public Affairs had a clue, they’d ask you nicely if they could use this clip to make the next viral YouTube hit and call it “Hi, my name is Mel and I’m a Mormon” … Since they don’t, I’d like to volunteer to help make that happen. Pls drop me a note if you’re interested. It’s a great message and the story of how this clip went up and came down and then back up again makes for an interesting story.
This is a lovely video. Thanks for posting!
By the way, I LOVE the title of your blog. That’s actually my favorite Bible verse! (Matthew 10:16 KJV)
Mel…I am a member as well, and can totally understand the message. We should try to raise our family to “love all people”, but loving all people and marriage…hmmm I have to go with the commandment on this one. I have gay friends and love them and respect their relationships, but marriage in my opinion is saved for unions to procreate. On the other hand, all this will be fixed in the next life. I would imagine that you live in Utah or some community not too far…..life outside that bubble is soooo much better! I hope it all works out in the end. Keep the faith!
It seems to me that one can both accept that God’s plan for us (in order to reach our greatest potential) is for a man and woman to be one, whilst not defining for others what their concept of marriage is or restricting their choices.
I don’t see any Gospel doctrine which says we insist that the civil government must define what marriage is, or must enforce a particular definition, or be involved in the marriage business at all.
Darn. I was going to marry my fiance, but I’m in menopause and can no longer procreate. I guess that would threaten the sanctity of your marriage, which is so much holier than mine would ever be. I better spread the word to ovarian cancer survivors and hysterectomy patients! And to think, we almost had happy loves with the men we loved. Oh well!
But obviously marriages aren’t only to procreate. LOTS of people get married and either can’t or choose not to have children, so it’s gotta be about a lot more than just that.
Mo wrote: but marriage in my opinion is saved for unions to procreate.
Mo, are you also against marriages between the post-fertile, infertile and childfree? How long should a couple be allowed to remain married without procreating? How will you arrange for the judicial annulment? Will there be a fertility test at the county clerk’s office?
I’m just curious, since my husband and I (after much careful consideration) chose not to have any children. Should our marriage be made illegal, since we are not procreating?
It is the work of people like you that will bring the change needed in our country.
I find your stand courageous.
You are an excellent citizen, mother, and follower of God. You are acting on your conscience which I believe God wants us all to do. Thank you for being brave and standing by your truest convictions. We are all very proud of you!
All I can say is WOW, Mel! Your five kids are so lucky to have you as their Mommy! While I am not LDS, I am a “believer” and feel the same way you do. May God bless you and your family, and thank you for standing up to those who would deny my daughter and her partner a loving marriage. Actually, I’m going to put you up for sainthood, Mel! <3 <3 <3
Mel – As someone who also struggled with prop 8, being a newly married recently returned missionary, I was also afraid to speak out publicly. I shared my thoughts and feelings about it with close friends and relatives both mormon and not, but I did not dare to go against the church publicly. My husband and I have since left the church – not because of prop 8, but because it was not right for us. We were going for the wrong reasons and we were very unhappy there. Luckily for us, the fallout from our families has been pretty minimal, but mostly because we focus on our relationships with them and not on the church. To anyone reading this who is still LDS and happy there, please continue going and speak out as you see fit. For those of you who are still LDS and feeling inadequate and depressed, do what I did and take some time off. You can always go back if you miss it – if you find that you don’t miss it, like me and my husband did, you will be amazed at the peace, joy, and freedom that can be found outside of the church. Take that step to find out.
Make no mistake (as most unfortunately will anyway, because it’s quick and easy) “The Mormon Church” and it’s disciplinary practices can include just a lowly bishop that has a weakness in being a homophobe and has probably hurt others too with his human based short sightedness. That bishop is just a person with their own set of beliefs and interpretations in a ward within a stake of many wards. That person can also build up an opinion on that ward and cause others to misunderstand as well. What does this mean? Probably time to just move.
I know others who are still in good standing with “The Mormon Church”. One just got married in a temple and previously spoke out strongly against what was happening with Prop 8.
Disagreement does not immediately equal excommunication or “threats from higher ups”. But depending on the shepherd (bishop or immediate ward/stake leadership) and where they are spiritually and mentally, it can. Obviously her’s wasn’t willing to see reason, and that does happen. But that wasn’t the ENTIRE church suddenly going against Mel for posting this video. It was people too immature to remember what the LDS church is about.
Mike – People like to pretend that it is not the church, it is the people are to blame. Why does the church have this committee then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strengthening_Church_Members_Committee
Her stake president was probably notified by this committee and then he notified the bishop to keep her quiet. Stupid CULT!
>At the time, there was a big voice against Prop 8 and I thought my little video
>didn’t matter. It was a drop in a collective bucket, but I failed to consider how
>much it mattered to me!
It obviously mattered if your own leaders were alerted to this by HQ. They were scared enough to try to intimidate you.
But no matter how modest you want to be about this, hearing people within the church continuing to speak out against the church’s actions mean more than anything else to people like myself.
I used to be in the church. I left. My mom is still in the church, so is my sister. My sister hasn’t spoken to me in over 7 years and with that, her 6 kids. My mother was always a bit more rational than this but she still grappled with reconciling issues like these with the church’s teachings.
I don’t think it’s something I’ll ever have the luxury of seeing resolved within my lifetime.
So I did what I could. Put it behind myself, my relationship with the church, all those who I knew who wouldn’t talk to me if they were to know about myself… and moved across the country. Nobody familiar I could run into, so I effectively ran away.
People would be shocked to realise how common this is. But it’s still the only thing we can do for ourselves to live our life free of conflict and guilt. Not from within, but from people from the church who want to call me immoral because I love another man.
However, Mel, you should brace yourself. You’re probably going to be getting a lot of attention now.
Your video was posted to Reddit and has hit the mainpage.
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fmhvi/the_mormon_church_told_her_to_take_down_this/
Reddit is bigger than Digg and Fark. So… yeah. Good luck.
Christ taught us to love everyone unconditionally. What he didn’t teach us was to agree with their decisions and their lifestyles. When you remove religion as an argument against gay marriage, you’re still left with the “natural” aspect of it – the biological aspect of it; it is against nature, simply because homosexuals cannot conceive.
I’m sure you’re aware of the doctrinal teaching called “Free Agency”. It is so simple, yet it answers nearly every question, quells every debate, and clarifies teachings that some who speak out against the church cannot grasp. In this context: homosexuality is a choice. As children of God, we are given the gift of procreation and the physical manifestations that our bodies have developed which drive us to procreate. Simply stated – our sex drive and our attraction to the opposite sex were designed and given to us by our creator. That concept originated in the context of an “evolving” species – which is another extremely simple concept the church teaches. We are continually evolving, learning, growing, and striving to become perfect. Our evolution will no doubt culminate when we inherit all that our father has given us, just as in our mortal existences we strive to teach our children all that we can and allow them to become like us.
Homosexuality goes counter to everything in that plan of eternal progression. Why is this concept so difficult to understand? It isn’t. Some might argue that individuals are “born” with homosexual tendencies. I believe this to be true – but again, this is a free agency issue. Some individuals are born with physical limitations and they must choose to accept those limitations, or become a victim. If a person is born without the ability to walk, does that person choose to lay idle their entire existence, or do they fight and struggle to live a “normal” life? If an individual is sexually assaulted as a child – altering their perception and desires – do they still have the choice to live a life in harmony with what nature intended? Absolutely, yes.
I sincerely hope this doesn’t appear to be an attack, but a way of simplifying what the church teaches and why.
Chuck, I think you are missing the point.
You have very strong heartfelt feelings, and we can all understand that.
Mel even said that her opinions of homosexuality (and it’s very possible that she shares your views) were irrelevant.
The point that Mel, and most of us posting on this site are making is that the church ant its members are entitled to make whatever rules they like for members to follow. The problem comes when we tell people who have absolutely nothing to do with the church what to do. (I see it as a little like trying to revoke Starbuck’s license to do business because we don’t believe God wants people drinking coffee.)
Chuck, I would really like you to thoughtfully read D&C 134. It really puts things in perspective. The church asks the government grant it religious freedoms, and the church will not exercise influence over the lives of nonmember citizens.
D&C 134:4…”We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others.”
D&C 134:9 …’We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.’
Chuck wrote: the biological aspect of it; it is against nature, simply because homosexuals cannot conceive.
I guess you’d better notify the some 1500 non-human animals that pair up homosexually. Or are you arguing that they “choose”? http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
Wow, you amaze me. I have become inactive in large part due to my feelings about the Church’s involvement in Prop 8. You have done more to remind me why I love the gospel then I may ever be able to put into words here…
Thank You
Thanks for this, Mel. I was raised LDS (but am agnostic now). I have both friends and relatives who are gay believing Mormons. I can’t begin to tell you what they go through. I know one who did shock therapy at BYU years ago and lived in a marriage with a woman that was a lie for many years (he was not attracted to her and could not, in spite of all efforts, become so). He eventually left the marriage because he could not continue to lie to this woman he cared about as a friend, and they are still friends now. She has been able to move onto a marriage that works for her. I can’t tell you the pain in his voice when he talks about those years. I also know a teenager who contemplated suicide, a hardcore believer who still feels deep shame when he goes to church on Sunday because he believes everything about him is wrong. His parents constantly refer to being gay as a “lifestyle choice” and he is afraid to come out to them, because he knows the church will tell them to reject him, and they always follow their church leaders. I tell him there’s nothing wrong with him and that he is a wonderful human being just the way he is, but what’s the voice of one person against the voice of an entire church?
Your video is very brave, and very honest, but I beseech you, almost beg you, to question how a church that is governed by men who put forth beliefs that destroy the happiness of your fellow human beings can be a true and honest church. I beg you to go to church looking for the faces of the gay children there who are so ashamed of living that they think of dying, because of something they were born, not something they chose. I beg you to ask yourself what you will do and say when one of your children or nieces and nephews turns out to be gay. Is it so Christ-like and kind to support a belief system that must always have a scapegoat (as they have made African Americans the scapegoat in the past, and Native Americans, and who next?), must make someone “evil” in order to have a “good”, must throw gay couples out of the Celestial Kingdom in order to be able to define straight couples as “righteous”? When you accept these things as true and right, in the process you walk all over the people who are being labeled “wrong” and “evil.” You become the one shaming them. You become the one who rejected a child of God for being what God made him.
As long as Christ-like, loving Latter-Day Saints who believe only God can judge right or wrong, who believe that it is wrong to throw the first stone (by judging the sexual orientation or marriages of others) continue to still go to church and accept that it is okay for the church to preach openly that a gay child is a sinner, it is okay to pay tithing to that church, it is okay not to question that church’s basis for making scapegoats out of human beings…as long as you support that, things like Proposition 8 will continue to pass, and millions of gay people will continue to be sent the message, every single day of their life, every waking moment of their existence, that they do not deserve to be a child of God.
How is that Christ-like at all?
Nice video, Mel.
I’ve taken my position a bit further: I want government out of the marriage business completely. If the Mormon church doesn’t want to marry gays, it doesn’t have to marry gays, but if the Unitarians want to do so, they can. Let people decide for themselves who is in their family, and create a few simple legal documents to make that status clear to any interested party, whether it’s a hospital deciding who can visit a critically ill patient or an employer deciding who can be covered under an employee’s health plan.
Live and let live, and be excellent to each other.
I have followed the marriage equality issue closely for some time and I am always surprised that people so often relate the civil partnership of marriage with the religious institution. We use the same term to describe both, but clearly they are different. As an example, a conservative Catholic may feel that a divorce does not absolve him or her of the religious sacrament of marriage. Similarly, a Muslim man can dissolve his religious bonds with his wife by repeating the phrase “I divorce thee” three times; courts have found again and again that this does not constitute an end to the couple’s civil marriage obligations.
The marriage equality movement is not an attempt to reform the religious institution of marriage, just the civil partnership. Any religious group should be able to make its own rules about whom it will marry. My wife was raised Catholic, I was not. We were not able to be married in a Catholic church, but my civil rights were not in any way violated. Similarly, even religious beliefs that are considered incompatible with a civil society are not infringed upon: a Christian Identity church can refuse to marry a mixed race couple.
To all religious people: marriage equality is not a threat to you. Expanding the rights of all to enter into a civil partnership sponsored by the government is not an attack on you, it is no less than meeting a constitutional obligation.
You’re giving Christians a good name! ;-)
Thank you for being brave and putting this video back up. I always believed that the rights of the minority should never be decided by the popular opinion of the majority. Also as a member of a minority religion, I think the separation of church and state has started to blur. I have also studied the teachings of Jesus and find your video to echo the his teachings. Thank you for standing up, and letting your message of love be heard!
Here’s the problem with this video though. I don’t feel the Spirit at all when I watch it. In fact, it bothers me greatly. I know you feel that you’re right in your belief to support everyone’s right to do whatever they want, but let me tell you where you err.
You stand now in direct opposition to God. If you are as good a member of the Church as you say you are, then you sustain Pres. Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator for our days. You sustain him as the mouthpiece of God here on the earth. In other words, his words are God’s words. This isn’t an opinion article for the local newspaper. He’s speaking as the prophet, pleading for us as church members to stand up for the true definition of marriage. You know, the one that God ordained. When did God ever ordain marriage between man and man?
Love them all you want. That’s well and good. But it’s not okay to accept their behavior just because the world accepts it and says you should too. Where does that line end? That’s what they mean by a “slippery slope.” You accept this, then you start to accept other things the world says is okay. Alcohol, pornography, sex outside of marriage. You have proved yourself here and now to be a woman who fears the world more than she fears God.
And don’t even try and say you were “threatened.” The Church doesn’t threaten anybody. That’s ridiculous. Did they say they were going to take away your temple recommend. Uh, yeah. Of course. That’s because you’re supporting groups that oppose the doctrines of the Church.
Just so you know, homosexuality has EVERYTHING to do with this debate. That’s the whole foundation for this debate. If no one practiced homosexuality, this wouldn’t be an issue. If the world wasn’t trying to cram acceptance of homosexuality down our throats, this wouldn’t be an issue. Opposing gay marriage doesn’t mean you hate people that choose to be gay. You can love the person while hating the action. Where you err is that you cannot separate the two. But this is your choice. Side with the world and support gay marriage. Or side with God and uphold the true definition of marriage as He defined it.
Just because it’s not the popular choice doesn’t make it the wrong one. Since when has the Church ever been popular though?
I agree with your comments 100%, JD.
But you can believe gay marriage to be something that a ‘Mormon’ shouldn’t do, but still think it shouldn’t be made illegal to all other people.. Should we create laws of the land to govern all of God’s laws?
I’m genuinely curious re: your suggestion that the video is problematic because you don’t feel the Spirit while watching it. Conversely, I DO feel the Spirit while watching it. So what are we to make of that?
You forget something. God sent us here to be happy not to suffer, ergo it is man’s duty and wish to be happy in anyway they see fit; as long as they respect the other’s right to be happy.
Tell me can you deny someone’s happiness?
A stalwart and non-questioning member of the church.
BTW, it’s not about doing the popular choice. It’s about extending something legal and secular to all tax paying US citizens.
And for a time, the definition of marriage also included one man and many women, sanctioned by God himself.
Wow!
JD, no one could criticize you for lack of zeal!
I would suggest getting that old thinking cap mended though. Maybe you can see that major breakdown in your logic.
Until you lobby for the re-enactment of prohibition, threaten to bomb Starbucks, and chain yourself to the gates of Playboy International, one would wonder why you are so fixated on not ‘accepting’ homosexuality while leaving all the other standards you mention relatively… well, accepted. I’m not asking you to drink or smoke, or go gay, I’m wondering what you think is acceptance, and asking you if you are applying the same standards to these various things. If you can abide by ashtrays at the bus stops, and coffee filters in the grocery stores, aren’t you already on that scary, dangerous slippery slope? It is not natural for man to breathe in smoke. Are you going to arrest someone for smoking in their own living room because it will offend your God? I hope you can grow up, and realize that some people don’t care, are not as anal-retentive as you, and would simply like to be left alone.
Finally, let me persuade you with a variation of your own idea;
If people would just take care of their own problems, none of this would be an issue.
Oh, please. If you believe the words of the Prophet are coming straight from the mouth of God, then why do the teachings change with time and the political climate to contradict themselves? Why did the Church teach that black skin was the “mark of Cain” and say that absolutely no black man would ever hold the priesthood, then suddenly allowed it in 1978? Did God change his mind? I doubt Civil Rights did as much to change His mind as it did to change the mind of the new Prophet.
Let’s be honest. Feeling the Spirit when watching this video has much more to do with what YOU already believe than with any kind of spiritual phenomena. If this subject is something distasteful to you, of course you aren’t going to have any good feelings towards it. And really, *not* cursing homosexuals is NOT a slippery slope. Just because I drink coffee and tea doesn’t mean I’m going to suddenly think pedophilia or animal torture is okay. Seriously. I promise. There’s still the line of what you morally, spiritually, politically believe, and nothing somebody else does in their private life is going to affect what you do in yours — unless you let it, of course, and tell yourself it “rubbed off”.
And yes, the church does threaten. It wouldn’t take much searching to see the many times the church has been taken to court (and lost) because of actions like threatening to excommunicate strong, believing members for stuff along these very lines. My own father was threatened with excommunication AFTER he had already asked to be removed from the church record, which they refused at the time because they were trying to pad their local numbers to get a new ward built (yes, that’s exactly what they told him — he let it go at the time because he didn’t care about it that much). After the threat, he sent them another very nice letter asking again to be taken off the record, and included a reminder in the form of court records where the church was ordered to award very large settlements in this same sort of case. Needless to say, he was NOT excommunicated and they removed his name very promptly as asked.
Listen, if you don’t support the idea, fine. But it isn’t your job to decide who’s okay and who isn’t — it’s God’s. Marriage, gay or straight, is one person falling in love with another and the two making the mutual decision to make a formal partnership of their lives. I almost said “the rest of their lives”, but then the church thinks divorce is okay, doesn’t it? Gay marriage isn’t going to hurt anybody, and does absolutely nothing to affect your life or your marriage.
And your assertation implying that being FOR gay marriage is the popular idea? Please. If that was the truth, then this wouldn’t be a discussion because it would already be allowed everywhere.
And in case you were wondering, I am a straight female engaged to the love of my life, a man who I plan to spend the rest of my life with. So it doesn’t affect me either. But I believe that everyone should be allowed to choose what they want to do with their lives.
Stew wrote: Opposing gay marriage doesn’t mean you hate people that choose to be gay.
No one “chooses” to be gay, anymore than they “choose” to be straight. I didn’t have to decide whether I thought Paul McCartney was cuter than Petula Clarke to me … he just *was.*
If you presume, Stew, that people choose to be gay, you also presume that they “choose” to be straight. What criteria did you apply when making your decision, Stew? Or were you just more attracted to girls than boys?
Hmm …
Maybe Reddit’s bigger, Jimbo, but Fark is also paying attention: http://www.fark.com/video/
More importantly, when Cleve Jones made the trek to Salt Lake City to call out LDS HQ in the aftermath of Prop 8, the thing that impressed me the most is how he limited his remarks to calling for an accommodation to be made in the public square. It was a full-throated demand, but substantially, that was the extent of it. And that’s all that really matters right now as far as the Mormons are concerned. All they need to learn is how to let other folks get on with living their non-Mormon lives … and stop freaking out about the improbable prospect that any of us want to turn the tables and start telling Mormons how to live.
If more folks can step up and help us dial down the rhetoric as Melanie has with this video, I think we’ll start to get somewhere.
“All they need to learn is how to let other folks get on with living their non-Mormon lives . . . and stop freaking out about the improbable prospect that any of us want to turn the tables and start telling Mormons how to live.”
Exactly!
Mel,
I am a Christian. I also love gay people. My brother is gay and has been since he was born. He is also my best friend. I support his right to love the only way that he knows how and I cannot judge him for that. The matter is dear to my heart because I feel that gay people have continuously come into my life for me to love as I would any other person in this world. It has continuously caused conflict in my Christian walk. I have been judged by my beliefs and stood on many a soap box voicing my support and confusion as to why a Christian could judge first and not love.
I love your video…It says exactly how I feel. I love others no matter their walk, and this video really articulates this point in an excellent way. I would not have seen this video had you not put it back up…it was sent to me by my husband who has always had a bit of a problem understanding my brother’s lifestyle…this was his way of telling me that he now understands.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Monica B.
JD
Read your articles of faith, then read your words. Wow! I see how Christlike you are. Your words scream “cult” to me. No questioning or thinking for yourself…scarey!
Mel, I want to point out that while you claim that this video is about love and acceptance, it really doesn’t speak about that at all. It speaks out directly against the church in regards to their position on gay marriage. This is why your temple recommend was being revoked. You essentially stated that the church’s stance on gay marriage is incorrect. There is a big difference between expressing YOUR love and acceptance of gay couples and expressing your dissatisfaction with the church’s doctrinal position.
Stew,
I made it very clear that I was only addressing the legalities of marriage in this video, I was not trying to tell the church what it’s doctrinal position needed to be. At the same time, it could not define my political position. In fact, you can be completely in line with the church’s position on gay marriage (that God forbids it) and think that it should be legal. In the end, I felt that my dissent was reasonable, respectful and within my stewardship. I wish I had held my ground then. I see all kinds of political comments by temple-recommend holding Mormons (some even famous) that are antithetical to the church’s position on immigration, yet their recommends are not threatened because of their political activity. Why is this issue different?
It was totally about love and acceptance.. loving and accepting that there are others that believe differently and want to live their lives differently.
You seem like an amazing woman, Mel. I saw your video on thedailywh.at today and was warmed by your words. I may not believe in your saviour, but I believe in love and respect. There has been a lot of controversy associated with the church over the years, mainly because religious folk are seen as being closed minded and hateful. I think you’re definitely doing your part to turn that around. I was especially glad to see that you didn’t feel you had to pick sides in this argument. I think it’s high time that we were reminded that being a Christian does not equal being a bigot. I think that both the anti-gay and the anti-religious will have to do some hard thinking after reading your words and watching you speak.
Thank you, sincerely.
Howie J
I believe a former LDS prophet (Gordon B. Hinckley) once said – “if you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”
It’s nice to see members of the church standing up for what they believe in, rather than going along with a position that doesn’t make sense, and goes against the basic tenets the church teaches.
I hope other Mormons (who feel the way you do) share their opinions, so church leaders can see where their membership stands on the issue.
Thank you so much for your courage in making this video. I am a convert to the church and it is very hard for me to reconcile the doctrine of a Heavenly Father who loves us with the actions the church has been taking of late. Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Thank you for having the courage to put it back on the web, and for speaking out while following your conscience.
Well done video, Mel. As a former member (I’m still considered a member on the book, though), I was conflicted over many things the church did over the years. I was told many times by leaders of the church to keep quiet and not to question anything when I voiced my reasonable opinions and feelings. The whole Prop 8 push reminds me of the ERA push in the 70’s when my mom was very much aligned with the church and I questioned why someone would want to fight against equal rights. Even as a teen, I thought going against your conscience was something un-human.
I respect your decision to stay in the church as you are still a believer. I send to you my best vibes of strength as those that think differently than yourself will continue to come out of the woodwork, telling you to deny your feelings supporting equality and humanity.
Mel, as a devout Mormon that is attracted to members of my own gender, I understand the emotions that are involved with this issue. I thought your comments were very thoughtful and well articulated. While I agree with nearly everything you said, I think you are misunderstanding the Church’s position. This is not about taking away rights. It is not about forcing people to live a certain way. It is not about discriminating against sinners and failing to show them love.
To the contrary, I think the Church’s position (one that I embrace with all my heart, and one that I have deliberated on for a long time) is founded on principles of love for everyone. It is about standing up and saying that marriage in society, both in and out of the religious context, has always meant something more than just two people that love each other. By redefining marriage to mean any relationship between two people that deeply love each other cheapens the institution, weakens society and leads to less happiness for everyone (including gay people) in the long run. People might scoff at that and think it is old fashioned or puritanical, but I believe it with all my heart and I think it is what God teaches.
The church isn’t trying to take away rights or punish people for sinning. It isn’t even trying to stamp out homosexuality. It is saying that family is fundamental to happiness and to a strong society. It isn’t about lacking love for homosexuals. In fact, it is all about loving everyone and trying to help them come to Christ and receive his love and you.
I think it is unfortunate that you characterize the church’s position as one of prejudice and hate. As someone who would potentially be the target of this prejudice and hate that you speak of, I can tell you that I have found nothing of the sort in any of the teachings of the church or in the church’s position on Prop 8. Are there prejudiced people in the Church? Are there homophobic people that hate gays? To be sure there is. It is a shameful thing. That is not what the Church teaches or advocates though.
Edward, if the church was really so concerned about not cheapening marriage as an institution, it would spend most of its time on opposing no fault divorce and drive-thru marriages (ala Las Vegas)
Edward wrote: It is about standing up and saying that marriage in society, both in and out of the religious context, has always meant something more than just two people that love each other.
Yes, for the vast majority of history it meant a woman being chattel to cement a business relationship. History of Marriage in Western Civilization .
I’m sorry to say, but your church’s position *is*one of prejudice and hate. Your church meddled in politics to *take away a right* from people that your church thinks are icky. Did you know that there were people in California whose wedding was stopped *right in the middle* because Prop 8 passed (thanks to a campaign that was well-funded by your Church)? Why should people who are not even members of your church be forced to obey your church’s rules in the public square?
So I think I myself am icky? How do you know who I hate?
I believe, Edward, that I did not mention your name at all. I said “your church’s position” and “your church thinks.” Your church’s position is that GLBT people are, basically, disgusting and should either remain celibate for life or force themselves (through “reparative therapy” of various ilks) to pretend to be straight and marry someone of the opposite gender (in the process, essentially ruining two lives).
And yes, I know plenty of self-loathing gay Mormons who would vote against their own interests. I hope that answers your question.
I see, though, that you did not answer my question: Why should people who are not even members of your church be forced to obey your church’s rules in the public square?
No one should be forced to obey my church’s rules. But they should be required to obey the laws of the land which are established based on a democratic purpose. Labeling all those who oppose gay marriage as bigots is a sign that you aren’t thinking about this very much. I promise that if you actually read what the church teaches you will see it has nothing to do with hate. I don’t expect that you will do that though. You seem to have your mind made up.
Do let’s look at the law of the land, Edward:
14th Amendment, US Constitution
For those who may have forgotten civics class or are link-shy, here is what it says (emphasis added):
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
So, Edward … could you show me the part of the Constitution (the law of the land) which says that it is acceptable to abridge the privileges of gay people? ‘Cause I just don’t see it … and Prop 8 *took away* (hint: that means abridged) rights specifically from gay people.
In case you also missed the lesson about Federalist Paper #10, I’m providing the link. In summary, it says that the tyrannical majority may not take away rights from the minority by vote. That’s the whole purpose of a constitutional Republic (hint: that’s the form of government that we have). My civics teacher was fond of saying that democracy was two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner, and that it was why we don’t have a strict democracy in this country.
So yes, Edward, I have indeed made up my mind … based on the review of the law of the land. The slippery slope that your church started is not, in fact, that kids will be taught that LGBT people exist and ::gasp:: are normal, but that now any unpopular group’s rights can be put up for popular vote. Who will be the next target? I’m guessing either women (the war on women has been a lengthy one, and I’m guessing you are not old enough to remember your church’s work to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment) or people of color (specifically, Latinos/as) or practitioners of Islam, given the frenzy of Islamophobia in the right-wing media.
BTW, I am intimately familiar with what your church teaches about GLBT people, despite not being GLBT myself. I have read many of Boyd Packer’s speeches on the subject, as well as “For The One,” “God Loveth His Children” and numerous other tracts about the alleged “evils” of GLBT people. Your church is welcome, under the 1st Amendment, to do as it pleases within its own walls. But when it infringes on not only the civil liberties of citizens but also on the religious liberties of *other* religions (hint: not all faiths think/teach that GLBT people are “icky” … and your church put a great deal of effort into making sure that those churches could not perform legally binding marriages for same-sex couples), it has overstepped its bounds.
I am unbelievably proud of you! I left the church years ago and haven’t looked back. I hope you and others like you are the real future of the mormon church.
Peace and light.
Mel, thanks for sharing this video and your thoughts. It’s always a wonderful feeling to find faithful LDS church members who support gay marriage. I have a close friend who is gay and left the church after years of struggling to remain faithful and homosexual, and he’s probably the most kind and thoughtful person I know. Thinking about denying him basic civil rights and basically telling him that who he is isn’t ‘natural’ makes me sick to my stomach. I told him that every time I fight for this issue, via blogs, Facebook, etc., as emotionally tiring as it can be, I’m doing it for him and hoping to change maybe one mind out there.
Thanks, again, for being another voice out there, hoping to change minds.
Kudos to you for making this stand.
You are a hero, to me at least :)
There is a lot out there that tires me, but this video was a breath of fresh air on an otherwise miserable day.
Thank you :))
Melanie, I found your video via reedit, and came here to say that I think you are an inspiration. My heart goes out to you. As a gay male in a 10 year relationship that cannot marry my partner, I thank you.
i love your message and the way you delivered it.
but it is so sad to think you go to a church where people judge you and threaten to kick you out. especially when your behavior is so in line with the teachings of jesus.
organized religion is nothing more than men having power and control. i stopped letting them have that over me years ago. i know what jesus taught and that is how i try to live. nature is my church.
When I’m out after a business meeting, and the beer bottles get passed around, at some point I have to tell them that I don’t drink. The whole table goes silent, and one by one they all say that they really didn’t think they needed to drink this time, etc. What was about to be a relaxed atmosphere… the beginnings of breaking the ice turns instantly into rigid formality.
It is my place to make or break the mood. “I don’t personally drink, but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy it when others are relaxed and enjoying a drink. Please, go ahead,” I say as I pour out a beer for my neighbor. The festive atmosphere returns to the table, and we can all relax after a hard day at work. I’m not the least bit interested in alcohol, but I can’t stand the fact that my not drinking makes people uncomfortable.
I wish that some of the hard lining mormons here would really understand what it is like to live in the grand and eclectic world out of the protection of their little mormon bubble. It seems odd that they would want to impose that bubble on nonmormons in another state. Get along, play nice. Grow up.
Dear Mel, Bible says to love each other, it is right. It means we should love all people: a man with a cigarette, murderer, or even rapists.
e.g. Every murderer, rapists, or pedophile has a mom, and some of those mothers carry on loving their children no matter what they’ve done? Great example of that love in action. Big question! Is it a right thing to love a beast? Yes, I think it is. Do we hate the evil they do? Yes, it’s also absolutely normal to hate such things.
Here is a simple principle:
“We Should Love People but Hate the Bad Stuff They Do”
Everyone does bad things, no matter who we are (believer or not, gay or not)
Dear Mel, I just want to remind you what bible also says about this issue.
Dear gay people, please don’t hate me for this quotation. I love you, and because of that have to say truth. I know for sure the one who says you truth is the one how truly loves you.
“Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Dear Misha:
Thank you for the Bible verse. Perhaps you would like one in return:
Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”
Have a blessed day.
For a more complete understanding of 1st Corinthians 6:9-11, see: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm
Quoting:
Or are we going to claim that the translators of the KJV couldn’t have made a mistake?
And again, nothing of this has anything to do with forcing /your/ beliefs on others, which is what the video is speaking out against.
Mel,
Your heartfelt message of acceptance of others and extending unconditional love is a message that needs to be expressed more often. Though our stories have some difference, the theme revolves around the same issue of marriage within Latter Day Saint (Mormon) community and leadership, and the consequences for questioning.
I as well have no ill feelings towards the church, it’s leaders, or any of it’s members. I respect the right of those who choose to remain a member of the church, just as I respect the right of those who chose to leave it’s membership. I am one of the latter and have no regrets for my decision. I come from the ancestral line of Brigham Young, through a brother of his. My family has been Mormons for generations. I am turning 50 this year. I share this so that there will be a greater understanding of the depth of my decision to leave the LDS religion.
I learned of some very disturbing church policies and beliefs after I was married almost 30 years and handed divorce papers. When the divorce was final I went to both my bishop and my stake president and asked them to assist me in writing a letter to the First Presidency requesting that my temple sealing to my now ex-husband be dissolved. I was told no. That the church did not dissolve a temple sealing until the individual requested permission to be sealed to another wife or husband. I explained, that at the moment of my request that I did not see myself marrying again. But, should I determine at a future date that marriage would be something I would like to have again I would not be marrying another LDS man. I went on to share that I personally could not respect nor trust someone that had looked into another woman’s eyes over a alter of God and promised to be together forever only to have him look into my eyes over a alter of God and promise me the same thing. I explained that marriage was a matter between the two individuals and God, and I had grave concerns that I was being dictated to remain “married” to my ex in the church eyes by men who barely knew me and leaders who have never even met me, nor was allowing me to even explain my reasons for the request. I was told I needed to trust, have faith in the church leaders, and to never question their decisions. That should I begin to doubt or question the decisions made by the church leaders I was on the path of destruction, that Satan had then taken over my soul and that would lead to disfellowship or even excommunication from the church.
I attended the temple once a week and had done so for many years. It was very challenging for me when I was at the temple to understand how the church leaders, most of who I have never met have so much control over my free agency and dictate who and where I should be married to. This opened up a lot of questions for me regarding marriage and the amount of control that one is placed under when marrying in the temple.
I was married at the age of 17 in the Manti Temple. Yes, that means I was a minor. The ceremony at that time (which has been adjusted many years ago to not include molestation and death threats) consisted of the what is called “washing an anointing” and the “endowment. The washing an anointing involved elderly women seeing my naked body and touching me in private and near private places as they “washed and anointed” all your body to perform in accordance to God’s plan. If you were a male, then elderly men would do the same. The endowment involved taking on oaths to honor and obey God, your husband, church leaders, to give all that God has given to you to the church, and to never share anything about the temple ceremony. The penalty for disobedience was death. And you performed mock actions on yourself of how your life would be taken if you did not live up to the covenants that you made in the temple. These actions including symbolically slitting your throat.
Outside of this temple, anyone performing these actions or threats on me would be subject to law, prosecution, and possibly jail time. But inside the Mormon temple ceremony and culture, this ceremonious molestation and death threats were done under the guise of God’s divine plan for families to be sealed for time and all eternity so they can be together forever. And they were never questioned as being wrong. Remember, you were not allowed to even talk about them with others or you would have broken your covenants and the consequence of death.
People outside the LDS culture do not fully understand the level of not questioning church leaders or church policy. To question means that you will loose your membership, your temple promises, your soul, and your family because you will not be together forever without these things, according to church doctrine. When the prophet speaks, the membership not only listens but obeys. When the prophet told the LDS women that only one small pair of pierced earrings were to be worn. Woman all over the world removed any additional pierced earrings and let the holes heal up. To question not only brings persecution from leaders, but from other church members as well.
I left the church when I was threatened with ex-communication. I asked that my name be removed from the records of the church. I made the decision based on what I have shared above, but the ultimate reason was when I was told that ex-communication was done out of love. That they would help me to return back to good standing into the LDS church if I would do everything that I was told to do and show sincere repentance. I was told that I would not be allowed to pray to God or testify of Christ while I was at church. It was this final act of taking away my God given right to pray to my God that I made the decision that I could no longer be a member of this church and I asked for my name to be removed from it’s records.
Life was immediately different. I lost many close friends because I was no longer a member. I received anonymous notes on my door, and I was even offered to give my sons to another family who would raise them “in a righteous LDS home”. Eventually I relocated from Utah to another state. I have had no regrets for any of my decisions. As I stated above I have no ill feelings towards the church, it’s leaders, or any LDS people. I wish them all of God’s blessings and well being upon them. I am grateful that I and my family have moved on with our lives.
I share this part of my life openly in hopes that one will understand in greater depth the courage that Mel has taken, the possible consequences that she may now face and what her family may now encounter because of her decisions. When one challenges or disagrees with ANYTHING from it’s leaders, you and your family enter a path of being persecuted to a level that reaches the depth of your soul. It is taught from the time you are a child that one never questions the prophet. To question the prophet it is as if you are questioning God himself, since when the prophet speaks it is the voice of God speaking through him. The intense internal struggle that takes place can not begin to be described in a few brief sentences.
I sincerely hope, with this greater depth of understanding the LDS religious culture, that anyone who reads can more fully understand the level of unquestionable commitment that is given to the LDS leadership in your association to a LDS member. If you are a “good” LDS church member. You do what the prophet tells you to do and you NEVER question him, their doctrine, or any of it’s leaders.
Thank you for sharing this. It’s been some time now since my family left the church, but I remember how hard it was for all of us to be cut off. Two other families we were close to left at the same time, so we had someone to talk to about it, but only one other member of the church stayed in contact with my family. While I didn’t hang out with any girls my age at church, I was *the* designated babysitter for Relief Society events and for several families, including our bishop’s. Being cut off from the children I had cared for was the hardest part… after all, nothing about me had changed except that my name was no longer written in a book across the country.
What I have to be thankful for is that my immediate family has always been there for me, and my extended family never cut ties (though my poor grandmother spent the rest of her life trying to convince us to come back to church). Unfortunately, I know a few ex-LDS (both straight and gay) who received even less when leaving the church — cut off not only from their church family but also their blood family. My heart breaks now for a girl I know who is struggling with her unending faith in the Mormon church, but she knows she is a homosexual. Her blind faith has left her with the decision that, despite knowing she will never be attracted to a man, she will someday marry and bear children because it is what her church tells her she should do. No one should have to resign themselves to a life they don’t really want because of what someone else tells them is so.
Leaving the church brought me closer to God and opened my mind about what else is out there in the world. I thank HIm that I have been blessed in my life, and believe that He is leading me where I am meant to be. And yes, for some people, they are meant to be Mormon… or Catholic, or Jewish, or Agnostic, or even Atheist — after all, any believer should know the greatest test is someone articulating their opposing viewpoint. Which is why the more arguments I hear on why gay marriage is wrong, the more resigned I am that each person should be allowed to choose for themselves.
I know who is more Christlike. You are a great person and have nothing to fear when you act as Christ would do.
@ Edward: “By redefining marriage to mean any relationship between two people that deeply love each other cheapens the institution, weakens society and leads to less happiness for everyone (including gay people) in the long run. People might scoff at that and think it is old fashioned or puritanical, but I believe it with all my heart and I think it is what God teaches.
The church isn’t trying to take away rights or punish people for sinning. It isn’t even trying to stamp out homosexuality. It is saying that family is fundamental to happiness and to a strong society. It isn’t about lacking love for homosexuals. In fact, it is all about loving everyone and trying to help them come to Christ and receive his love and you.”
Edward – I think that this viewpoint is interesting, because it fails to recognize that marriage for gay people is actually strengthening and creating families. What this viewpoint does, is reject the idea that two people of the same sex are a valid family. And, my experience has shown me otherwise. I think it’s so great that Mel and others have stood up to challenge our viewpoints and expand our minds on what actually makes a family.
Laurie I respect your opinion, but disagree with it. A family has been defined for centuries (and I believe for eternity) to mean a mother and father and children. I believe it is that way for a reason and ultimately anything else is not enduring and will not lead to true happiness.
With that said, I do not mean to say that people cannot find peace and joy in intimate relationships outside of traditional marriage. I am not saying that gay couples that choose to adopt are doing a disservice to children. On the contrary, I think they often do a create service by providing a loving home for children who otherwise would be in a bad home full of abuse and neglect. That is a good thing. That is a wonderful thing and I applaud it. I personally believe, and my church teaches, that it would be even better for that child if he had both a mother and a father. A home led and supported by two gay people living in a monogamous committed relationship, raising children to be moral individuals, is a great thing. I only suggest that maybe there is something even better out there. That that is not all there is to being a family. That both the couple that feels attracted to each other and the children they are raising would be better off in a true family as defined by God, and not by people that want to justify their strong and legitimate feelings for each other.
I completely understand that this idea relies on a belief that there is a God and that God doesn’t define a family in a way that excludes a gay couple form qualifying. I understand that many people disagree with my belief on that issue. I also understand that many people disagree with the idea that we should be making my viewpoint the law of the land. I hope other people would understand that I disagree that we should be making your viewpoint the law of the land. That does not mean I hate you. It does not mean I hate gay people (I am one). It mean we disagree. In a democratic society that is going to happen a lot.
In California, my point of view happened to prevail in the political process. I respect your right to try to change viewpoints and to use other democratic institutions (including courts) to try to change that. But please don’t go around accusing me of hating people. That is not a fact. We can disagree in a civil way without throwing the “hate” word around. And please respect me enough to believe me when I say I have considered many points of view on the subject and feel my faith lines up with the teachings of the Mormon Church. I am not ignorant or blind. I just disagree with you.
I’m not saying hate doesn’t exist. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist amongst a lot of church members (including some leaders). I am just asking that we stop the generalizing and stereotyping and actually start talking to each other and respecting each other.
Edward, is it your belief that the right to marry should be denied to individuals who are too old to bear children? Should infertile individuals be allowed to marry? What happens to a married couple if one partner becomes unable to bear children due to illness or accident? Should the marriage be ended by force?
These are not trick questions. My brother’s wife survived uterine cancer in her early 20s. Her treatment included a hysterectomy. Is their marriage of 20 years invalid due to her medical condition? My mother remarried in her 60s to a wonderful man and their happiness certainly seems, as you put it “true and enduring”.
As I said above, there is an important distinction between the civil institution of marriage (which is a legal partnership conferring specific benefits on two people) and the religious ceremony of marriage. Proposition 8 and similar efforts target only the civil institution. No one is saying that the LDS church or any other religious institution would be compelled to perform same sex marriages. What same sex married couples would get are the tax, health, inheritance and countless other benefits available to heterosexual couples. Your concept of a “true family as defined by God” is irrelevant in this context.
Edward wrote: A family has been defined for centuries (and I believe for eternity) to mean a mother and father and children.
Wow. I guess my husband and I aren’t a family, since we don’t have kids.
Laurie, I think you make a wonderful point, and I think there’s more to the issue than simply “defining the family”. The issue with believing that SSM will destroy and corrupt society must ultimately begin with the belief that homosexuals are inherently evil, bad people who, if given “rights” to be considered a “family” will ultimately use their terrible influence to bring society as we know it to its knees. I’m exaggerating a bit here, but these are the basic arguments I’ve heard time and time again from members of the Church who do not support SSM.
Please explain to me how two good people who just happen to be the same gender, are in love, and want to begin a family can possibly cause all sorts of harm to society? Simply being attracted to the same gender does not make one a bad person. To break it down even further, being a sinner does not make one a bad person. And treating others as though they are is, I believe, isn’t in line with the teachings of Christ. I fully agree with Mel on this one, and ultimately think that, politics aside, we should simply strive to love one another without prejudices.
You are a lovely human being.
Thank you.
This is one of the most articulate and well-crafted statements on this issue I have ever heard…. Hear hear!! Thank you for your courage and showing what it really means to be a disciple of Christ…
This could have been Mel if she did not take her video down. The church cares more about public relations and it’s own image than it does about families. This guy LOST HIS JOB! He worked for the church playing music, but they could not stand for any opposition. He was supporting a FAMILY and he took away his job! A family church MY ASS!
http://www.iamanexmormon.com/2010/11/hi-my-name-is-peter-danzig-and-im-an-ex-mormon-2/
oh, and his wife sided with him, thank GOD: http://www.iamanexmormon.com/2010/11/hi-my-name-is-mary-danzig-and-im-an-ex-mormon-2/
Thank you for your courage! I’m so glad your message of love is getting respect and attention it deserves!
Beautiful. Thank you.
Your actions are very important and very powerful. You are doing the right thing. I’m not LDS, but does LDS support, “Leave your brain at the door”? Or “leave your heart at the door”?
Love you!!!
See: Acts 13:10 (NKJV)
Amen sister Mel, AMEN! I’m so glad there are some of us in the LDS Church that can see clearly on this issue. I hope that our leaders will leave behind the homophobic messages like the one expressed by Elder Packer and rise to a higher level of empathy for those that don’t believe like us.
It’s very sad that your standing in the church would be threatened because you stood up for how you interpret the Savior’s commandment to love one another. Seriously, what kind of church threatens you because you’re trying to follow Christ and share that faith publicly? Thank you for your courage in making this video available.
Beautiful message. I’m not a member of your church, but I have many friends who are, and I can never reconcile their warm family relationships with the strong feelings against families made of gay couples. Thank you for speaking your mind in a thoughtful, considerate way.
I’m not religious, but that warmed my heart to listen to. I admire your bravery for standing up for such an important issue. As someone who went to a very conservative Lutheran school, I know just how hard it is to be the lone voice sometimes. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for spreading joy and love instead of hate.
Thank you your courage to share this powerful message. I too believe that protecting the civil rights of a minority group is key in protecting my civil rights. Keep us posted in your saga.
Melanie,
Thank you so much for your words. They truly touched my heart and gave me hope for my (admittedly dim) view of the Church of Latter-Day Saints. I hope you don’t mind, but I transcribed your speech on my own blog (linking to this post and to your Youtube video and account). You can find the transcription here: http://duncanheights.com/blog/2011/02/valentine-marriage/ in case you (or someone else) would like to use the transcript in the future.
Again, thank you. Very sincerely,
V.E. Duncan
I don’t believe for one minute that any Bishop would take your recommend away for free speech, and if he did, I don’t think he would be Bishop for long. If you aren’t doing anything wrong other than speaking how you feel, then you aren’t doing anything that could keep you away from the Temple. I am sorry but I just don’t believe this at all.
@Ashley, it was hard for me to believe at the time as well. You are totally welcome to disagree with my tactics and my opinions, but you’re not really in a place to judge whether this was my experience. My putting this video back up was about MY actions, not those of the church. I am the one who sold myself out in order to protect myself. I made the decision freely, this is not about blaming the church. If I were out for vengeance, I would have gone public with that story when it happened. I have no reason to lie about this.
I believe the church has the right to decide who enters its temples and teaches its classes. Freedom of speech is not a right granted by the church, there are many things I could say that would rightly deny my entry to a temple or my membership. I was told that my video was the equivalent of affiliating with groups against the church teachings, which prohibits one from having a recommend.
I want to be clear that my bishop did this from a position of love and not one of power, after several meetings and several hours of thoughtful discussion. At the time we both honestly believed this would be the best compromise and there was an outreaching of love from him and my stake leaders. Though I didn’t think I had done anything wrong, I agreed freely to the compromise because I was not asked to recant, and it was the only way to keep my TR and calling. I just underestimated the cost of not following my own convictions, a cost that was much higher than the loss of a recommend or calling.
Mel: I have nothing but respect for the courage you have shown with your video. I am a woman who is a lesbian and a Christian. I, too, have had to follow my own conscience. I know that God loves me and created all of who I am which is first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ.
For anyone else who might be reading this, my partner and I will be gathering a new Christian community of faith in Salt Lake this summer in which we will strive to live out the teachings of Jesus which includes speaking out boldly against injustice. Check out the website: http://www.cohslc.org
Give me a break.
@ Edward – I haven’t accused you of hate. I am not generalizing or stereo-typing. I’m just talking about the reasoning and logic behind the situation. I haven’t, as of yet, had anyone on the Yes/religious reasoning side of Prop 8 give me a real and logical reason for why a gay couple can’t form a valid marriage/family. I hear a lot of circular conversations that include these statements: “It’s the way it’s always been, “it’s the way God established it”, “Marriage is between a man and a woman”, but I don’t hear any rational logic. Here in California, I see my gay friends raising kids and their children seem to be thriving. (Their children’s biggest problems are the fact that some other people look at them and think they are not equal to the rest of the families)
You said, “I personally believe, and my church teaches, that it would be even better for that child if he had both a mother and a father. A home led and supported by two gay people living in a monogamous committed relationship, raising children to be moral individuals, is a great thing. I only suggest that maybe there is something even better out there. That that is not all there is to being a family. That both the couple that feels attracted to each other and the children they are raising would be better off in a true family as defined by God, and not by people that want to justify their strong and legitimate feelings for each other.”
And that’s fine. I understand that it’s your BELIEF. I’m not saying you are not entitled to it. But I am respectfully questioning your belief, the origins of it and whether or not it’s something your mind is open to. Cultures change. Churches do change their stance on marriage. The God Mormons believe in is much different than the God of the Old and New Testaments. A belief is not logic. I’m not sure that there is any proof, more than a belief, that children would be better off in a traditional marriage (which has it’s own problems right now) I see no harm in letting people pursue healthy, happy families in their own way without others trying to intervene and tell them that they don’t qualify.
If you don’t believe in God and revelation, then you aren’t going to get it. That is alright. My point is only that to label someone as a hater because you don’t follow their logic seems unfair.
There is no “logic” involved in denying people equal protection under the law. In fact, I have yet to hear a single, solitary non-religious argument to support such behavior. Where is the compelling state interest in doing so?
Oh, wait. There isn’t one.
I can’t tell you how much the video has meant to me. I have read your comments about putting it back up and I have to say that for me, your willingness to put it back up, shows the depth of your search, the earnestness of your heart, not weakness. I too, have struggled since then. I’ve followed the brethren in their reasoning, their arguments, and I have prayed that I would receive witness that it was right to stand against gay marriage. When I received witness that it was wrong, I felt sorrow for many reasons. For I knew it would alienate me from my fellow church members, but more so that it took me so long to come to the conclusion. But the heart does not lie, and I believe that the timing is not tragic. It reveals that we are good, moral people. That we have done battle in our souls, and we have received a witness that it is not a valiant effort to rail against our gay brothers and sisters. Once again, I just want to thank you for your brave heart. There are so many of us, just like you. And you have our love and support
Intolerance and hate is not how my Jesus lived his life. Let him be the Advocate and the judge of a person’s heart. I won’t expend energy to fight against someone who is gay – because I don’t believe it’s the way of the Savior. Sometimes being Christian is more important than being Mormon.
Recovering chicken? Naw, you’re a brave woman. Good job!
I’m neither Mormon nor gay, but I feel I can still comment on what you’ve so bravely said. I’ve never been confronted with the choice you made, but I would hope I would ask myself: “If not me then who?” You answered courageously. On behalf of the entire world I applaud you.
Mel – You are combining love for a person(s) and love for their behavior(s). The two are separate – and all the e-mails you received that I have read seem to ignore that point. While The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches its members to love everyone, it does not teach its members to love everything a person(s) can think up to do – including the marriage of two individuals of the same sex.
Jana-she never says we should love the behavior, nor does she say we should all love gay marriage. She is saying we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege…
We also believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men…from Articles of LDS faith 11,13
With the lds church involvement with prop 8 we are not allowing others to follow the dictates of their own conscience, (seethe prop 8 Mormon documentary) and we are not benevolent or doing good to all men.
In a way, I guess it comes down to whether you think homosexuality is a fundamental part of someone’s identity or whether you think it’s just a “behavior” they choose to engage in. I feel confident in my belief that it is a fundamental part of someone’s identity and that it’s not something a person *chooses* to do or to be–any more than I CHOSE to be heterosexual.
After reaching this conclusion, then, the whole love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin thing no longer rings true.
Thank you so much, Mel. People like you give me the courage to stay alive and live happily. I can’t express my thanks enough.
Thank you for putting the video back up. That took courage. And thank you for speaking up about the rights of every individual. I’m always happy for anyone who finds someone to love. And I think marriage should be a right between two people.
I understand why you took it down in the first place. I might have done the same thing at one point in my life. But then I got tired of squelching my own beliefs and trying to justify things that I knew were wrong. I’m much happier now that I’ve left that behind.
Please keep speaking up.
Brava Melanie, for your courage and for risking ostracism among those whose opinions you value.
Thank you. This is fantastic!
You are a fantastic example. I wish I had the privilege of knowing more women like you! Thank you.
I am sure that you received some serious vitriolic comments because of this post and attached video. I don’t have the time to read through them, but I wanted to say I was really touched by both the writing and the video. I am always impressed when people such as yourself can step forward even though when what is right isn’t popular. Thank you and best of luck!!
You would be wrong Traci. Read them for yourself. It never hurts to stereotype and make assumptions about people though, does it.
Edward, actually Traci is right here.
The comments on D&S have generally been very thoughtful and reasonable, but elsewhere that has not always been the case. If you’ve got a few hours to kill, spend some time on the reddit thread or browsing the YouTube comments. And that’s not even taking into account the private emails that have been sent. All in all, the response has been overwhelmingly positive, but some people have in fact left very angry comments as well. One of the interesting dynamics in the comments generally has been the reaction of other church members critical of Mel’s actions. Some loudly insist that she ought to leave voluntarily or be kicked forcibly out of the church. At the same time, other members just as stridently maintain that no local leader would ever even threaten to take away someone’s temple recommend for putting up a video like this. Someone ought to get these folks together.
I spoke my heart and truth about the Mormon church in my blog and my Bishop asked me to remove them from my blog as well as my family web-site; “they” did not approve of my position and stance. I didn’t even know they were watching my sites. I don’t have traffic to them but family.
I was called into their disciplinary court. I chose to not be excommunicated and resigned their church instead.
Be on the look out for your call into their “court”.
I agree with you and your statement and logic on this one. Good luck in the future. I also love your 12 Lunches.
Mel,
Your position necessarily entails one of three assertions: (1) God got it wrong when He told the Prophet to support Prop 8; (2) the Prophet got it wrong and misinterpreted God’s will; (3) You got it wrong. I’m sure you got an answer to your question of whether you should support Prop 8, but from whom? Do you really believe that God told the Prophet one thing and told you the opposite?
I think you’re confusing loving people with loving their actions. Do you honestly believe God hates people who engage in homosexual behavior? That is quite a judgmental opinion. And frankly, I think you’ve got it wrong.
Mike,
I clarify in the next post what I think loving our neighbor means, and that means extending the same legal privileges I wish to enjoy. I don’t believe God hates anyone.
You’re right, the prophet and I were on opposite sides of the same coin on this one. I don’t believe he is any more or less sincere in his efforts than I am in mine. I don’t believe that God would deny me a specific answer to incessant pleading yet be willing to answer someone else. I hold space for both of us following our own conscience the best we can, both of us interpreting the will of God the best we can. This is why I never questioned the prophet’s right to support Prop 8, I never tried to silence him. I never question his motives. I merely state that I see it differently AS A FAITHFUL MORMON.
I’m curious about what you do with differing opinions amongst prophets on other issues – is one of them more worthy than another, one of them closer to God than another? Is one of them necessarily “getting it wrong”?
The LDS church represents Jesus Christ. The Lord showed love and forgiveness to the adulterous woman but told her to ‘go your way and sin no more’. (John 8:11) Love for other humans struggling with same sex desires and attractions is no different from those struggling with opposite sex attractions. The Lord’s counsel is that sexual intimacy is only permited between a man and a woman within the covenant of marriage.
Love doesnt need a licence or official approval. I am a man and I love lots of other men. It doesn’t involve sexuality or physical intimacy. It does involve respect and consideration. Love is pure. Love is divine.
Jesus said to Love Everybody.
Hate the sin, but love the sinner.
I don’t like it when we create a hierarchy of sins. It seems like when we do, the ones we deem to be the “worst” sins are the ones that are the easiest for us to obey. So the commandment to not murder, for instance, is the worst one. How convenient. For most of us, it’s not difficult to not kill another person. But what if the WORST sin were to judge others? Or to gossip? Or overeat? Then a lot more people would be in big trouble.
[For the record, I am not saying that homosexuality is a sin. I don’t think it is–at all–just that it’s curious to me how we rank sins.]
All the people suffering in the world. All the people needing help. All the people requiring loving care and counsel. The church the bears the name of Jesus takes the time to kick people who are gay? It reminds me of the bullies at school, picking on someone who doesn’t fit in because they are an easy target. It’s mean and ugly – and some of us will NOT tolerate it.
Which is worse being gay – or squandering the widow’s mite to hurt them? I highly doubt that Jesus would like it – at all. My Jesus healed. My Jesus loved those no one else liked. My Jesus spent less time enforcing rules and more time feeding people physically and spiritually. I don’t remember a single time Jesus said to someone – I will not anything to do with you because you are gay.
Besides, it’s quite possibly illegal for the church to take political stances. They better be careful or their corporation might lose it’s tax exempt status. They need to check with their attorneys before putting their church neck out there again. I think this was a simple move by a corporation to rally their members around an issue and ignite religious fervor. At a time of economy downturn, the corporation is trying is trying to strum up business. This definitely wasn’t about being Christ-like because Christ would not like it.
I don’t think you have carefully thought this through.
While I agree on your feelings of love for all people it doesn’t show love to them to promote a behavior and a lifestyle that is clearly contrary to the will of God. You don’t have to agree with them to love them, to show them fairness, to empathize with their their plight or to even fight for their “rights”. They are, as has been demonstrated over and over and over, an abused segment of society in many, many respects.
But the right to “marry” isn’t one that we can convey. And passing such a ordinance has broad implications that goes way beyond just the gay movement.
But more importantly, and as a mother in Israel you should understand this, is the message it sends to our children and those of rising generations. You do love them, too, don’t you?
If we place a stamp of approval on this practice we tell them that we condone it. We legitimize it. We approve of it. And that they can enter into it without consequence.
Even though it may be a practice we may never feel inclined to participate in ourselves they might because the societal behaviors to engage in it are so pervasive. In some places the teaching of alternative gay lifestyles in mandatory as part of public school health education classes — not sex education, where you can opt of out it — but HEALTH education, where you cannot. This type of thing stems from the heightened emotional state of this debate.
This measure of calling their unions “marriage” implies, as it has traditionally from time and history recorded, a practice sanctioned by God. While such a case could be made for plural marriage, it cannot be made for marriage of any other type.
The first marriages never involved a government — they involved a “Church”. Surely the writers of the Constitution and the founders of our Country never included marriage as part of the public domain because it was only to them a function of the Church — not the State. To bring it into the argument only polarizes people along moral lines, which is absolutely contrary to the will and spirit of the constitution.
How and why were marriages performed, registered, and “recognized” by the state? Well, money for one. It provided another revenue stream. And classification, as another, in dividing those who pay taxes and receive benefits. Those divisive and arguably discriminatory boundaries were long before our generation ever took the reins of government — and can and should be reverse so that ALL groups are treated fairly. The gay movement’s call for equality rings true even in the ears of those of us who find their practices reprehensible.
But the answer is not to legitimize the practice by calling gay unions “marriages”. That, like abortion, will lead only to record levels of sin and generations of untold misery (not to mention years of therapy, broken families, betrayal, self-esteem issues, etc etc etc). And therein lies the rub: actually calling it marriage. If we call it marriage, that implies discrimination in any church that refuses to perform it, along moral and scriptorial lines, and then declare that they must sanction it. What happens to the separation of Church and State then?
I appreciate your message of love. I appreciate the calls for tolerance. I agree with them.
But let us please not change the definition of “marriage”. It has consequences far beyond those of our generation.
I appreciate your measured response and hope you come back to this post and to D & S.
Having said that, I have a problem with this assertion:
“While I agree on your feelings of love for all people it doesn’t show love to them to promote a behavior and a lifestyle that is clearly contrary to the will of God.”
I disagree that it is “clearly contrary to the will of God.” Where is it CLEARly communicated that God is against this? Surely you don’t mean the Bible, because it CLEARly condones a lot of things that we clearly embrace.
And regarding this:
“If we place a stamp of approval on this practice we tell them that we condone it. We legitimize it. We approve of it. And that they can enter into it without consequence.”
That is precisely the message that I would like communicated. I want it legitimized. I want society to approve of it in the same way we approve of heterosexual relationships because I do not believe people CHOOSE to be gay/lesbian any more than I chose to be heterosexual. So I expect society to “approve” of the lifestyle of gays and lesbians just as society approves of my heterosexual lifestyle.
And I am a “mother in Israel.”
The Prophet of the Lord — in fact, several modern prophets — have spoken clearly to us in our day and time that homosexuality is contrary to the will of God. Scriptures, both modern and ancient, also condemn the practice. If you will to live contrary to that, that is your agency. But don’t expect those who view it differently to sit back and allow society to debate it without their voices, even in defeat, be heard.
It isn’t the outcome of the public election that matters to me — or to anyone else who wants to be, as President George Albert Smith said, “on the Lord’s side of the line”.
I firmly believe this is going to pass and pass soon. But it will not pass until I have a chance to be counted as one of those who stand “steadfast and immovable” in an election that really counts.
Jeff, but modern prophets have said lots of other things that we now disavow . . . so how to tell which things are *really* God’s will/words and which ones aren’t? Therein lies the question.
It’s not up to me to say what the will of God is for someone else.
From your earlier comment: “Even though it may be a practice we may never feel inclined to participate in ourselves they might because the societal behaviors to engage in it are so pervasive.” – do you believe that people choose to be gay or to have homosexual feelings? Do you choose to be heterosexual? I can’t remember choosing it. I’m not afraid of my children choosing to be gay if/when homosexuality becomes socially acceptable.
Heather, that’s a cop out and you know it. When I saw modern prophets, I mean the current prophet and Quorum of the Twelve.
Claire: I don’t know if people “choose” to be gay or not. And I hardly see where that applies to what God has said. I do know what the scriptures say in that all men are carnal and I suppose that applies in this case. What I cannot reconcile, in my mind, is the fact that when I was in my youth I didn’t have to face the “in-your-face” militant threats from gays that my children do. I grew up in the SF Bay Area, not Utah. Of course, there were gays. But as a youth I wasn’t forced to make a choice about it. Today kids do. That should tell you something.
Look, I know what you’re trying to say. I’ve heard all the arguments. I am NOT unsympathetic, especially to those living outside the Gospel, for the challenges they face in trying to understand where people like me come from. There is great confusion, chaos and animosity. Guess where that comes from?
I am FOR fair treatment of anyone who is a child of God. If gay couples want ALL the rights I have with my spouse and that we enjoy as a couple I say give it to them. But don’t ask me to recognize it, honor it or glorify it. And don’t call it marriage. It is not and never can be marriage, no matter how you spin it or try to create it in a laboratory.
Hey now, Jeff–I honestly wasn’t trying to be a cop out. I meant my comment genuinely. You didn’t specify that you meant the current prophet when you said “modern prophets.” In primary, when we talk about modern-day prophets, we mean from Joseph Smith on. And that group of men has said a LOT of things that we now do not consider doctrine. So who’s to say that in 50 years, we will not consider this doctrine? I think that’s a pretty fair question.
I agree with you that you shouldn’t be forced to honor it or glorify it. I don’t respect or honor the chumps who keep picketing funerals of dead soldiers or KKK members or skinheads . . . but I am glad (albeit begrudgingly) that they have a right to free speech.
Heather said: I agree with you that you shouldn’t be forced to honor it or glorify it. I don’t respect or honor the chumps who keep picketing funerals of dead soldiers or KKK members or skinheads . . . but I am glad (albeit begrudgingly) that they have a right to free speech.
I completely agree. To me, this is issue is not about forcing other people to respect or honor anyone else’s relationship. It literally has nothing to do with what God did or did not say about gay people. Rather, it’s about affording everyone the same opportunities under civil law. I want the opportunity to define what a family is for me, and by loving others, I want my government to give them the same privilege. I want the opportunity to speak my mind, and I want my government to give everyone this right. I want the opportunity to have my church determine what is a valid marriage within its doors, and I want other churches (there are churches which believe gay marriage to be valid) to have the same opportunity. To me this issue expands religious freedom. I would be equally happy having the government get out of the marriage business all together and having everyone have a civil union from the government and leave marriage up to the churches.
Though I think the legal arguments about this slippery slope are flawed, if someone tried to take away my church’s ability to self-determine what a valid marriage within its temples were, I’d be the first person on YouTube and with picket signs in defense of my church.
Jeff, I hear you. I used to feel the same way. Getting to know some gay Mormons – really know them and what they have suffered- changed my mind and helped me understand why marriage equality is important.
“There is great confusion, chaos and animosity.” You know, the gays I know who are the most confused, have had the most chaotic emotional lives and feel the most animosity, are gay Mormons. The ones raised and now living ‘in the world’ are happy and well-adjusted, on the whole.
Heather: the Proclamation on the Family is about as modern and straightforward as it comes. On the issue of homosexuality, God has been very consistent about it for much of recorded history. The only thing that can override any of that is agency, which God himself by natural law cannot change. Standing it against in your personal agency is not enough. Complete obedience requires that we do all we can to stand against it and our hope in eternal progression, in the growing of light and truth, which brings understanding, requires that we stand in holy places and look to achieve the will of God.
Prostitution is legal — do you support that? Abortion is legal — do you support that? Alcohol is legal — do you support that? The list goes on and on. All of these wrongs are “legal” and a detriment to our society. 200 years ago these things existed but without society’s “guidelines” that the laws paints as to making these things acceptable. But wickedness never was happiness. Making these things available to our children by law does imply acceptance and any parent who denies that hasn’t had teenagers.
Claire: My experience with gays in the Church is different than your own. I know many, some who struggle and soldier on and others who take a defiant stand and scorn the Church — and me. The simple fact of the matter at the end of the day is that the ultimate approval they seek they will never get. We argue this within our borders and yet when you step out of those borders you get an entirely different set of standards of both acceptance and abuse, depending on where you go (ironically, the same as being LDS). We argue this within our TIME and we’re completely out of step with the ages. Most will argue we’ve made progress but you know what? When we get to the other side all the arguments become completely invalid because there is no eternal basis homosexuality.
The Church is in the business of saving souls. That has so very little relevance outside the Church walls which makes this a bitter conversation for so many people. They distort the message to mean that the Church is meddling into people’s lives, taking away agency when in fact the Church is actually providing eternal freedom by what it teaches people to choose.
I cannot, having a fire in the bones over the truth from God on this, in good conscience support a “law” that condones this practice. I can support “civil unions” and I can fight for those rights denied any couple in a civil union. But I will not support it as marriage ever. If God condemns it so should I.
As is Satan’s subtle way, the debate now has shifted. It used to be a clear division — those who stood against gay marriage were classed only as being in opposition. Now those who stand against gay marriage are guilty of discrimination and hate, marking us with all manner of assumed attitudes, biases, and behaviors. We’re demonized even if we sympathize with the gay movement and support reforms. We become “guilty”, labeled and persecuted, much as gays feel themselves. This is how sin works. Fighting discrimination — even perceived discrimination — does little to help the cause, no matter which side it comes from.
Temple covenants, for those who have them, are serious, plain-spoken commitments. God will not be mocked. Disobedience is how we mock him — and I mean that not for those who are gay, but for those who have made those covenants. The great warnings of the Latter Days and those tares that would be sifted from the wheat are supposed of many to come in some apocalyptic disaster. But I say it comes some times in a more subtle fashion when people make choices to stand against God in their public opinions and private actions. That is their moral agency, and their downfall. At one time, we all agreed with God. This mortal probation is a proving ground where we get the chance to do so again.
Heather said: “I disagree that it is “clearly contrary to the will of God.” Where is it CLEARly communicated that God is against this? Surely you don’t mean the Bible, because it CLEARly condones a lot of things that we clearly embrace.”
Between the problematic and conflicting things the Bible does say, the Prophets evolving and growing and changing their teachings (Yes, even among prophets their word is not consistent – at all) my wisdom leads me to take those teachings with a grain of salt. I rely on my own experience and relationship with the divine to guide me in these types of matters. I see so many good things coming from same-sex marriages, I can’t find one good reason why we would resist them.
Claire said, “Do you believe that people choose to be gay or to have homosexual feelings? Do you choose to be heterosexual? I can’t remember choosing it”
Precisely. I remember being eleven and starting to notice that those boys next to me weren’t quite so annoying anymore. I never made a choice, I just leaned into my natural attractions. Who is to say that my natural sexual attractions are supported by God, but another’s natural same-sex attractions aren’t supported by God? They come from the same place, so why is one wrong, and the other not?
When I truly contemplate, from personal experience, what is eternal and unchanging – what is my “soul” or “higher Self”, I am left with the distinct inspiration that my sexuality is not a permanent part of “me”. My personality is not permanent, my sexuality, my preferences – all of the many ways that life takes unique shape and power through me are all constantly changing, in flux, dissipating and fluctuating. I do not expect them to live on through death. I know that’s a radical thought to most Mormons, but I wonder if there is space in the theology to truly open the mind wide enough to consider the possibility?
That’s really interesting, Laurie. I think I would conclude (right now, subject to change :) ) that my sexuality is in fact a permanent part of me, which is why I feel so strongly that we need to accept people as they are (sexual orientation notwithstanding). I remember listening to a Sunstone podcast of a panel speaking about the issue of gays in the church. One of the speakers, a gay Mormon male, was saying that the idea that his homosexuality would be fixed in the afterlife was very offensive to him because he felt strongly that his sexual orientation WAS a huge part of him and he DID expect for that part of him to continue in whatever form after he died. It was a great podcast. I wish I could’ve been there in person. It was a very powerful experience for me to listen to him speak about how he had grappled with the idea of sexuality within a Mormon context. Sadly, he has left the church, which I think is a real loss to those of us who remain.
I’ll see if I can dig up the link to the podcast later.
I’m replying to myself!
Here’s a link to the podcast I was talking about. It’s posted on the Mormons for Marriage website and it’s the last speaker–Clark Cannon Pingree–that I was talking about. It honestly was one of the most spiritually moving things I’ve heard in a VERY long time.
http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=75
Heather – yes, I can see that perspective. From the Buddhist viewpoint, there is no Self, so it’s a big idea to grapple with. Which is why, I usually keep mum about it!
I can see why it would be offensive to a homosexual to say that they will be changed in the next life. That suggestion assumes that there is something wrong with him in this life. Yet, when all of our roles are challenged, our physicality, our personality, our chemical make-up, we see that they are constantly changing. When we sit and be still and witness what IS within, that is unchangeable, we find emptiness and openness. For me, that’s all I believe will continue on – it’s the only thing I see that doesn’t flux and change.
Bravo, I am amazed and challenged by your courage to speak up for what you find right, and for putting love first. You have given me hope and are my hero today.
I agree we should love everyone, but Gay marriage is a tool from Satan, it weakens the heart of our society, it creates no life…. don’t you see? if everyone turned gay we’d be gone off the face of the earth in a few decades time…. yet I agree we must love everyone, gay, white, black, purple… but please do not be deceived by lies… people are NOT born gay… they get confused along the way….
But plenty of heterosexual people don’t create life, either? Becoming a parent is not a requirement for receiving equality before the law.
Apparently God stopped talking to the First Presidency and The Twelve and started giving you revelation about this stuff instead? Interesting. Stuff like this and the feminist garbage spewed by Joanna Brooks are embarrassing to members of the LDS Church who know what it means to be loyal to the prophets instead of just giving lip service.
Love doesn’t have anything to do with acceptance of sin. Did Jesus love the money changers? Do I love my little children when I tell him “Don’t cross the street without holding Mommy’s or Daddy’s hand?” Love often means giving correction: http://lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/as-many-as-i-love-i-rebuke-and-chasten?lang=eng .
When I try to determine an explanation for why a “loyal member” would say something like this, I can only think that you’re doing things that limit your access to inspiration. One of my LDS neighbors recently told me that she has been conned into thinking that people are actually born gay and have no choice in the matter. It became clear how her ability to think clearly on a spiritual level has been negatively affected when she told me she watches “Desperate Housewives” and other sexually obsessive garbage on a regular basis. Mel, I invite you to examine yourself and determine where you have erred before you jeopardize your testimony and faith altogether.
For those who want to know what the Church officially thinks about the problem of same-gender attraction, I encourage you to read the interview given by Elder Dallin H. Oaks and Elder Lance B. Wickman: http://newsroom.lds.org/official-statement/same-gender-attraction . Measure yourself against with the Brethren teach. These men are Christ’s spokesmen.
Richard, surely ye jest.
Richard, you’re on the wrong side of this one. . . For the record, I’m a member of the church and the Oaks/Wickman newsroom statement is twaddle (and I’m certainly not the only member that thinks so). I’ve put up a few posts on the subject: http://wisdomlikeastone.com/01/07/same-sex-calling-bs/, http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/3496/talking_back_to_a_mormon_elder%3A_religion_versus_reality, http://wisdomlikeastone.com/19/02/heroic-aspirations-mormon/.
Richard –
You did a very kind thing. A comparison to Joanna Brooks is about the biggest compliment I could get ;)
On a serious note – The kind of love I talked about was loving someone as we want to be loved. I don’t want someone telling me my love for my husband is an abomination or that we should have rights that are lesser than others. The LDS people had that miserable experience before, so of all people, we should be the ones who “get” it.
If prayer and fasting are among the things that limit my access to inspiration, I plead guilty. At some point we all follow our own conscience. It’s the same part of me that tells me God exists, so I’m not sure why I should be doubting it here. That you and I get different answers to the same question does not destroy my faith in the process.
Richard, thanks for the comic relief. Damn funniest thing I’ve read all week. (Other than Jon Stewart riffing on Glenn Beck, anyway.)
Well, no one is being denied marriage. The rights and restrictions of marriage are shared by all citizens equally. Plus is same-sex marriage not being promoted due to only moral concerns or are there secular reasons for supporting marriage in society? The latter is the case.
And I am surprised that the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are seen as authoritative by a “Christian” woman.
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