Two-part proclamation from me:
1. I don’t know what I think about God these days, but this much I know: God is not the author of inequality. I don’t care who claims otherwise. I’m not buying what you’re selling.
2. Separate but equal is bollocks. I don’t buy it in movie theaters, schools, water fountains, hospitals, government, laws, train cars, soda counters, or busses. I sure as heck don’t buy it in my church.
In a meeting at City Creek Park on October 5, before the Ordain Women participants walked quietly to Temple Square to ask to be admitted into the priesthood session of General Conference, Kate Kelly said it much more eloquently:
“I have heard from many women, ‘I see nothing wrong with the status quo. I feel equal.’ To them I say: ‘You can feel respected, supported and validated in the church, but equality can be measured. Equality is not a feeling. In our church men and women are not equal.'”
Here are a few ways we could measure equality in the Mormon church:
Measurement #1: a listing of “General Authorities” on the www.lds.org webpage
Measurement #2: another listing of “General Authorities” in another part of the www.lds.org webpage
Measurement #3: a (very brief) listing of what we call the “Auxiliaries.” These people serve “under the direction of” the people listed in #1 and #2.
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I agree with Kate: equality can be measured.
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[For more Equality is not a Feeling posts, see the archive here.]
I agree. It can totally be measured. Equality is mostly objective when we are talking about a hierarchical structure of administrative power.
I realized this for the first time probably, when in a Primary Presidency and we kept putting in name after name to fill callings only to have them rejected. I realized that I had no power with which to staff our team, even after praying about who to call to fill the empty callings. There was no real power in our Presidency, all important decisions had to be approved by Priesthood holders.
How I felt about that was subjective.
I think you have a misunderstanding about the role of the presidency. The reasons bishoprics turn down names are many. If you had a bad taste about a particular bishopric’s style, welcome to the club — that happens, particularly when bishops/bishoprics are green and most particularly haven’t read the handbook. Generally, most bishops/bishoprics try to honor the requests that come in, because the presidency has already done all the work in lining up the candidates, because the alternative is that the bishopric would have to try to run the Primary on top of everything else that’s on their plate.
Well said, Heather. It’s not like it’s even something that requires more than the most passing of measurements, either. It’s so slam dunk obvious that women and men aren’t equal in the Church that the only reason I think people argue it is that they realize that once they concede it, they’ll have a difficult time reconciling it with the idea of God not being sexist or the Church being inspired.
Ziff hits the nail on the head here.
Scoring debate points on the definition of equality won’t change anything, though. I believe the Ordain Women movement is doomed to disappointment, and I say that observationally, without the slightest hint of malice.
Clay Shirky has observed that while there is no group without members, it is equally true that there are no members without a group. A group has to have a set of values around which to coalesce, and a purpose that sets it apart from out-group members; otherwise there’s nothing to belong to. A veneration of traditional gender roles is one totem of Mormonism; being “not of the world” is another. Removing the first totem weakens the second — that’s a one-two punch to the sense of meaning and purpose that are among the principal rewards of group membership. The vehement objections are therefore entirely natural and predictable.
Many Ordain Women supporters seem to view equality as an absolute good, but to most people it’s just another trade-off, especially if there are other life contexts in which church members can experience full equality. (A hard-bitten CEO may still enjoy the occasional visit to the dominatrix, for example.) Ironically, the more opportunities outside the church that are available, the less urgent change within the church may become.
As the Dread Pirate Roberts once put it: get used to disappointment.
Chuck, I guess it depends on how we’re defining “success” and what constitutes “disappointment.” I, for one, and not disappointed by anything that happened with Ordain Women. On the contrary, I am positively thrilled. While I can’t speak for all the women who are participating, I can speak for many whom I know experienced powerful, undeniable spiritual transformations on Saturday, October 5. It was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life.
So there’s no way that goes in my “disappointment” column. No way.
I know this is a discussion about gender, but the fact is that inequality exists in so many different areas as well–
how many black men are in that group; how many black women are in that group (I looked at the pictures of church leaders)–
it is as telling that there are no black women (I believe there was a hispanic sister some time ago, and, of course, we were blessed to have Chieko Okazaki)–
as it is that there are so many men–
They are mostly white, and they are mostly professional–
In the church today there is as much discrimination against those who are impoverished, especially in a highly stratified society, as there is against women–
It is all wrong.
In our ward there are people who earn 20 times more (a male) than other men in the ward–all working full-time. Sometimes the men who earn so little (most of the time the men who earn a lot don’t have working wives; often those who earn less must have their wives work, even when those women would be happier employed keeping a home) have worked hard to achieve even that measure of ‘success’.
Those men who earn that much less, even if they manage to keep themselves clean and neat and can articulate themselves . . . are laughed off in discussions in priesthood classes–never deferred to, even if they have an honest, intelligent opinion–
IF they presume to have opinions. The wise ones keep silent. Priesthood classes can be cruel; men don’t often talk about it, and not many ‘poor’ men spend time on internet sites–
I think it’s interesting that the Book of Mormon makes the racial and economic inequality so very obvious, while not mentioning the women. When people have enough to eat and they are not hurting people who have brown skin–
then they can worry about gender equality. It’s a luxury, but the ‘day’ will come when there will be no more inequality of ANY kind–
I was saddened at how those women were treated; I thought it was unmanly that the men walked around them. I think that is the part the troubled me the most; how would it have hurt anyone if the women had been allowed to come in out of the cold? Something about that just rings untrue!
Yes, and in equatorial Africa, most of the leaders are black. In Japan, most are Japanese, in China, Chinese, in Vietnam, Vietnamese, in India, Indian. There issue of who shows up as leaders has been addressed before in conference or other places — the Lord chooses his leaders. Making statements about things implying racism is pretty tawdry, considering that these leaders are aware of the church in all the parts of the world. There’s a time to look past race, and see the individual, just as the Lord does, and as the Apostles and the 70s do.
The comments about pride in your ward have already been covered in the scriptures. So what? Pride is a nice, universal sin that all can partake, regardless of wealth or position. Sorry to hear it exists so painfully there in your ward. The BofM talks about the times when the rich and proud treated the poor badly.
in our ward the wives of wealthy men are, generally (there are exceptions, thank heavens!–often those who are wealthier and retired are quite lovely)–
as mean as their husbands; sometimes they are even meaner.
Marginalizemormon, yes. A resounding yes from me!
I did mention that the leaders are almost all white. But yes, my focus was on gender.
Thank you for pointing out the many other layers of oppression/silencing/marginalization going on with regard to race, class, native language, sexual orientation …
Aye, Chuck, those very words were said to me by my abusive X, “Mr. Righteous Mormon Man” in response to me finally speaking out on his rapes and abuse of me over almost twenty-nine years of a temple marriage. He was barely disciplined in a “court of love” only to yell at me all the way home and that he had no intention of changing his behaviors because in the temple sealing ceremony I was “given” to him and because he was “steward” over me. THAT is why Chuck, women DO need more power and authority in the church, to curb those awful abuses some mormon men inflict on their spouses and families. Lest you think I’m an anomaly, I assure you I’m not. Since I’ve spoken my truth, other LDS women have told me their heart-breaking stories. To me those words, “Get used to disappointment” are fighting words, used to cover up a lack of respect or recognition of truth.
Heather, I’m genuinely glad that you got deep personal satisfaction out of your participation last conference. But as a movement, Ordain Women has been crystal clear that it wants the church to ordain women. I’m defining success or disappointment according to the achievement of that goal, and I think it’s unlikely in the medium term at least, for the reasons I outlined above.
Sherry, my heart goes out to you. I grew up in an abusive household; my father was an alcoholic with a furious temper and a tendency to drink the rent money. My strongest early childhood memory is of waking up to him chasing my mother around the house, yelling at her that he was going to beat the shit out of her if her screaming woke me up. I was 4.
But my empathy for the pain of abuse doesn’t change my opinion about the likelihood of Ordain Women’s success in reaching its goals.
Buzzkill . . .
;)
You might not know what you are feeling about God these days, but I’m pretty confident He feels tremendous love for you. I don’t see this issue the same as you, but I have certainly had questions about this and other things over the years. I hope you won’t stop trusting in God and seeking Him in your life. God has told us that His ways are higher than ours, and if it doesn’t line up with what seems intrinsically right to you (which I’ve experienced) it’s hard, but faith and humility are options here. From where I stand, I see some on this issue almost declaring how He should operate which seems dangerous ground to me. I know our paths are all different, and maybe what I’ve shared won’t feel a bit helpful, but I genuinely hope you can feel God’s love in your life.
Sherry, that is a terrible problem/thing–
I know that sometimes men, being often larger and sometimes more ego-centric, will sometimes make such evil choices.
However, I know of a situation (know of it, not gossip or rumor) in which a young man who is quite large and handicapped married a young woman who is also handicapped–
the young woman is slightly higher functioning and was able to hold down jobs better than the young man–
soon after the marriage the wife began to tear down her husband for not being as competent as she was; he wanted to work, so that she could take the time she needed to tend the babies they had chosen to have together, which she had expressed she wanted to do–
he never touched her in anger or demeaned her in any way–
but daily she screamed at him that he was incompetent–
after 5 years of this he ran away and couldn’t be found–
his family was frantic; when he was found (he had been taken in by Christlike people) eventually, because he couldn’t hold down a job, she kicked him out, literally; she was heartless. Yes, they are both handicapped; they are both ‘special needs’, very much so–
at least one set of parents was seriously concerned about the marriage even taking place (temple)–
but did all they could to support this marriage between these two special needs ‘kids’–
the children are normal; the wife has done everything in her power (including divorcing him and marrying an inactive member, after announcing that the first husband wasn’t active enough for her)–
to keep him from seeing his children; much legal work and hours of exhaustion on the part of those who love this young man are being required–
strangely enough . . . he found kind people to live with after he was kicked out, people who don’t scream at him or tell him he is worthless–
and he has held down a job for a long time–
he works hard to see his children within all the arbitrary parameters that have been set for him by this capricious young woman–
in this case the abuse was obvious; the young woman was very open about the fact that he never abused her in any way–she denied that she was abusive even while screaming at other family members–
but she almost destroyed his life; he turned to addictive substances (he’s doing better now)–
she is ‘active’ in the church; he is no longer–
several bishops told him he was not doing his job, because he couldn’t find or keep work; those who love him know how hard he tried, because they knew he had always put forth a lot of effort; it was the constant abuse of his wife that made it so hard for him, but the bishops always sided with the wife–
how would women (collectively) getting the priesthood help this situation?
This isn’t the only such situation; there is a family in our ward where the women browbeats her highly paid, professional husband and their sons–
in public she is very sweet; we got entangled in a situation with them where we observed it; she had no ‘shame’ over our being witnesses to it–
her husband hides in his professional life; thankfully he is able to do that–
we have wondered if she is without conscience, but in public she is VERY sweet, even gentle in appearance, and yet the male members of her family are afraid of her–
because we were socially involved with this family for a time (due to church work) we learned things that were very hard to learn; this woman has abused only the male members of her family–
at least one other person came to me regarding this circumstance; at one point we spoke with a bishop about it–
he just said, “there is nothing that can be done”–
how would women getting the priesthood help that situation?
You see, this situation can’t be generalized. I admit that the present situation is untenable. At least one young woman close to me has confided, “the spirit is gone; the priesthood generally has little value any more, so women just as well get it”–
I thought it was sad that this active LDS young woman (single) is so cynical, but she has seen so much unrighteous dominion (among both sexes)–
that she feels that the priesthood has become null and void–
young women close to me feel this way–
I just listen–
Doing anything by gender will never solve the problem of abuse which can be found among all people–
In the meantime the part of the group which is righteous will pay for the abuses of those who continue to abuse flagrantly, whatever their gender–
Good points.
I hear what you are saying about women abusing men. Seen it myself. It happens far more often that men abuse women. Restoring the priesthood to women will not change these things overnight, and will not change all of them ever, but it will stop fostering a system in which women are viewed as second, lesser and even property. It will also change the dynamic of ecclesiastical abuse these victims all too often suffer at the hands of ignorant men don’t have the humility to know their limitations and will not refer these women to those who can actually help them make decisions and take actions to escape the abuse. This sort of thing thrives in an environment where one group of people are perceived as less than another and in patriarchy, that group is women being less than men.
Don’t seek priesthood from the church. Seek Priesthood from God.
The only way one can ever win any battle is through the grace of God. Many of us have challenges. Most forget God is IN them all.
I don’t feel equal, I know I am equal in God’s eyes. I love to listen to my brothers and sisters, but the credence I give them is nothing much, in the end, compared to the council I seek from God.
Not that I get much… but I must NEVER stop seeking!
I know I myself can’t even begin to be personally worthy of the priesthood, but I can ask God to bestow it on every worthy being, in order to better serve God, in order to better seek God.
The source of all things is the only thing worth seeking!
I know that everything, this whole world, bad and good, was a gift to us by a laughing, loving God. And everything that was made is trying to help us, to become the God-like being we were always meant to be. Are we not all of us Princes of Creation? Heirs of the Cosmos?
How can 1 church that makes less than 1% of a single planet cause such great beings as yourself so much strife? Seek God!
Seek God. God alone is all we ever need.
I think there’s a large (and growing?) misunderstanding about the priesthood and what it is. There’s priesthood, priesthood leadership (the presidency, and rights of revelation and discernment), and priesthood blessings and power. The world-wide leadership training (available on-line) and Sis Burton (the General RS president) spoke very directly about this, Sis. Burton especially so.
From the commentary I’ve seen here, there’s a lot of emotion about poor examples of priesthood leadership, but the question of what “equality” means, either the worldly variety, or what it is in the Lord’s eyes is another question.
As someone who lives outside the USA, I have come to the conclusion that the problem is that many of the conservative members equate their culture with the Gospel. They think Elder Oaks gave a talk about the Gospel where all I heard was conservative US culture – no gospel at all.
So when it comes to equality for women, which is not a conservative concept, they reject it, and believe they are defending the Gospel. In fact they are defending the culture, which is shared by many of the US born leaders. Every time someone says “between a man and a woman” after marriage he is saying – I hate gays, but also womens equality and any other non conservative concept, whether the Gospel would allow it or not.
“Every time someone says “between a man and a woman” after marriage he is saying — I hate gays”
That’s actually baloney. That’s what marriage is, if there’s any common understanding about the law of chastity in the church. Is your presumption that the prophet, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve don’t receive any revelation?
I think the one making the presumptions is you, Observer. The prophet, First Presidency, and the Quorum don’t receive revelation. None that I’ve seen in the last ten conferences (unless Apple products are considered a revelation). The only way this issue will be resolved is when it starts costing the church tithe money. Then women will get the priesthood, children, whoever it takes to keep the money flowing.
NOM, interesting take. I think the leaders of the church (the prophet, etc.) would be surprised to hear that perception from you. I don’t usually hear that among folks I know at church, so I’m not sure where you’re coming from. For most I know in the church, revelation occurs nearly daily on a personal level, and more than that for leaders (of both genders).
I would really like to see your statement “equality is not a feeling” taken to its logical conclusion. You seem to be focusing on “Things can be unequal even if you feel equal” but ignoring the other side, “Things can be equal even if you feel unequal”. You outright dismiss the statement “I see nothing wrong with the status quo. I feel equal” without realizing that it is equally easy to dismiss your argument with your own words. I would submit to you that you are arguing from a position of feeling unequal, and remind you that equality is not a feeling. As you have heard repeated to you, Relief Society is the female equivalent of the Priesthood organization. This can be true and equal even if you do not feel it is so.
Umm, no, I’m actually not talking about my feelings at all. I’m simply presenting data that illustrates inequality.
Relief Society is absolutely not the female equivalent of the priesthood. If it were, there would be female leaders “presiding” over male church members (and leaders). Clearly, that is verifiably not reality here.
J Thomas: Auxilliaries are not equal in power, authority or prestige to the governing body of an organization. The RS is an auxilliary. We are not equal.