I had a “half-a-church” moment the other day. It was Christmas Eve and we were at an evening service at another church. I looked up and saw two young women–they were probably 12 or 13–helping to officiate in one of the rituals. I was startled by the image.
I thought of another image. I thought of my twelve-year-old daughter taking the sacrament from a twelve-year-old boy. There he is, in white shirt and tie, doing his small part in the administration of an important ritual. He’s experiencing something bigger than himself–something he doesn’t fully understand, but that’s swept him up in its current. Passing the sacrament makes him, in a small way, a part of the infrastructure of the religion. Part of its scaffolding. This is an apprenticeship and it’s important because the door to authority stands open to him. He has things to learn. He has responsibilities now.
My daughter, who in other settings is stubborn and fearless, sits quietly in the pew and carefully takes the tray from the boy. She doesn’t make eye contact. She senses what all Mormon women, sooner or later, come to realize. It is not her place to pass the sacrament, but to receive it. Her place is to support and prop up, to encourage. Her husband will baptize her children. She’ll stand in the background and watch, and then wrap them in a towel as they come up out of the font to keep them warm. She’s not part of the framework of things, although she must find a way to attach herself to it. There is no apprenticeship, no open door. She may carve out a space to contribute, but it will always be subject to review–always “under the direction of.”
I have brought my daughter, dressed up and nervous with anticipation, gift in hand, to a birthday party where the boys will decide what games to play and what the rules will be (and after the party is over, she’ll be expected to do the dishes).
In that moment, I see the church–our church–as half a church.
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Amen. “Separate but equal” was never equal.
Imagine how it feels to be a grown woman internalizing this same message. The nose picking deacons have more authority than the women who gave birth to them.
Lol. Amen! Though the image you conjured up made me burst out laughing, it’s laughter tinged with a deep, abiding pain I have known all my life. I have questioned such things from as young an age as I can remember.
Exactly!
This is a painful reminder of our second-class status. I don’t expect it to change in my lifetime; I wish there was some way to innoculate my kids so that they could remain active but not buy into this attitude that men preside, women follow. Ughhhhh…. I hate patriarchy.
This brought tears – and not happy ones, to my eyes.
Maybe the Church wouldn’t be rapidly losing members if we were a “whole church” utilizing the talents and abilities of all the members.
Your painful observation had really touched a nerve for me. Jacque’s” …The nose picking deacons have more authority than the women who gave birth to them.: . ” is dead on.
“[…] sits quietly in the pew and carefully takes the tray from the boy. She doesn’t make eye contact. ”
This.
This was me. For a long time. Even as a grown woman I kept my eyes to the floor. I thought it was something about “reverence” for the sacrament. Now when I take the sacrament, I make it a purpose to make eye contact with the deacon handing the tray to me. I smile. And always. Always he is taken aback. I don’t know if this seems irreverent to these young boys, or if they’re just surprised to see a woman with her eyes not fixed to the floor.
Beautiful post. Sad, but beautiful.
What has bothered my oldest daughter (so far) is not the fact that she cannot have the priesthood and participate in the ordinance of the sacrament as more than a recipient, but the fact that the priesthood-holding boys her age dispose of the leftover sacrament bread by throwing out the door of the church and say they are giving it to the birds. And so as we leave the church every Sunday, there it is right outside the door blessed and passed over waiting for a bird to partake.
Karin- I understand, but the reality is that we do not believe that the bread is LITERALLY the body of Christ. It serves a symbolic role and then when that role is done it is simply bread…nothing special about it. This reminded me of the problem I had a child with bowing my head during prayer. I felt that hell was down there, shouldn’t I want to have my face turned upwards towards heaven to pray??
I’m afraid I’m one of those weird Mormons who’ve never felt like a second class citizen. The priesthood has their responsibilities, frankly I don’t want them-I have enough of my own. As for having to ‘carve out a space to contribute’-that makes it sound as though I’ve got to push someone/something aside to contribute. Usually there is lots of open spaces for contribution. A dunk in the water by a man holding the priesthood does not a baptism make – someone needed to be taught (hopefully by both mother and father) so that there was meaning to that ordinance. Priesthood holders have never taught, insinuated, or out right told me that my contribution was secondary or taken all the glory for something I had a hand in. If anything, the opposite has been true. They have been honest about needing help, about thanking me for my contribution, giving me confirmation that I didn’t need. I don’t need someone else to tell me I’m important. I hope that women will stop looking for something/someone/a revelation/a church policy to tell them how important they are. They should already know inside.
Once again this is a lovely post that makes me think about the way service is meeted out and organized within the church. I really had not thought about it in this way and it gives me pause. Thanks.
how do we get our sons and daughters to see beyond the authority to administer the sacrament–or beyond participation in public lessons and rituals at other churches–and to feel the broken heart and contrite spirit, and receive the forgiveness and feel the companionship of the Holy Spirit that is the aim of the ordinance, and the most sacred purpose of the meeting? i’m not sure who’s at the disadvantage, the young man who is given the priesthood and will more likely leave the church before he graduates from high school, or the young woman who, without it, is more likely to remain active, at least until her late 20s or 30s, maybe longer.
I would not be honest of I said that I hadn’t noticed the differences in programs and privileges in the church. Being a woman does give me the compensation of bring life into the world. Not a small task and not one a man would/could do.
Great article, I love your voice. Best step I ever took in my life (and my daughters) … we stopped doing the dishes. My daughters favorite book is “The Missing Piece meets the Big O” never underestimate the power of children’s literature to speak the Truth.
So sad and beautiful and true. Thank you for understanding. I’m sad that so many people still don’t.
Yes. This brought tears to my eyes.
Yes, tears. :( We were both looking at our soon-to-be-12-year-old daughter at church today, feeling sad. :(
I believe it. Poor thing.
@Mary, first I would suggest you read the bishop’s handbook about the sacrament and how leftover sacrament should be dealt with – I would recommend learning about the doctrine first then commenting later – I would say refer to the bishop’s handbook under “sacrament.” Not that I care about the issue at all i just thought that it was funny that someone that started off from a “doctrinal” standpoint ended their argument/reply with stating something that is in direct contradiction of the actual doctrine on the issue – albeit a “technicality” but would help prove my theory that most members of the church don’t even know or “understand” their own doctrine…
And really, you’ve never felt like a second class citizen in the church? I’ll invite you over to every birthday party, celebration, holiday, etc. and I will thank you for “EVERYTHING” that you do and be truly grateful but when it comes participating in such things I am going to have to ask you to just follow the direction of your leaders. Or wait… I am going to make you an equal partner in my LLC that I have only I am going to be CEO and you’re going to be Co-CEO only you have to do everything that I ask you to do oh and cleanup after me. Aren’t two example a lot like what you would find in the church? The way that I see it the church kinda says hey men and women are equal – the men have the authority to do this, this, and this and the women are equal in the fact that they can support the men. I guess what I am asking is why do yo feel like “equals” in the church? Because based on facts an circumstances test — you’re not equal and not an objective mind in the world would even try and argue otherwise… If you’re so equal – then why aren’t you “equal?” And how does “preside” as used in the Proclamation on the Family a synonym for “equal?” How can you be an equal to someone who “presides” over you? Okay I am done – as you can see I am clearly on the authors side on this one…
This was made abundantly clear to me when my daughter turned 8. The primary had a “Great to be 8” meeting for parents, to explain the Faith in God program. The handout told us that the FIG program helped prepare boys to receive the priesthood, and girls to become Young Women. The next page was a list of the activities for the girls for the next 6 months, with each month covering a different value or theme from the FIG program. The activity for “preparing for Young Women’s”? Hairstyles!
I wanted to run screaming from the church, and I had to wonder, was I the only one?
Becoming “young women”. You mean, something they already are and were destined to become because of mere biology, regardless of a booklet or not?
Bingo.
So, first a disclaimer: I have some thoughts, but am unsure if they will come out clearly. So please take what I write as well-intended. Another disclaimer: I have always, always!, had a very confused internal method of analysis, due to my being able to, or at least trying very hard to, see both sides of the coin. So, although I have a very strong opinion in several areas, I often can still understand why someone else sees it differently. I think that’s okay. Alright…that being said…
I can definitely understand the feelings that are written in this post. And I have DEFINITELY had my own questions about why some things are the way they are at this time. At the same time, I can relate to @Mary’s comment in that I have not felt so second-class, either. Maybe that’s because I just don’t concern myself with it as much and mainly just focus on my personal relationship with the Lord during church meetings. When it’s just me and Him, it doesn’t matter to me as much what is going on around me, whether boys pass the sacrament, or men, or if ever girls or women did so. I also want to say that I usually don’t make eye contact…but never was that out of feelings of being submissive or second-class or whatnot. And, to be fair, I have not ever really noticed others making direct eye contact with those passing the sacrament, be they men or women. Personally, making eye contact would be physically illogical, as they are standing and my eye level is basically at their belly. So I look at what I pick up then go back to either reading or just looking around, thinking quietly until the passing of the sacrament is over. Either way, @bugonwindsheild, from what I have gathered, this site is supposed to be a safe place for people to discuss their different views about difficult topics. And I think it was slightly disrespectful of you to discredit @Mary’s feelings simply because you don’t feel the same. Just because you don’t feel the same, does not make it impossible for her to have felt as she wrote. It’s okay for you to feel as you do and for her to feel as she does.
I also want to say that, honestly, I have not been the one left cleaning…in all honesty, my experience has been that, for the most part, the men have been the ones on clean up crew. And set up crew. And other mundane tasks. And I know that was mostly just an example or analogy, but I just wanted to say that.
I like the question asked by @rhj….I guess that might be a personal reason why I don’t get as riled up on Sundays or any other day that women are not exactly equal…(and maybe so many get riled up because they feel we shouldn’t HAVE to do this) but I think, for me, focusing on the bottom line, the substance of the gospel is what matters to me most. Is it unfair that our organization is so patriarchal? Absolutely! But when all is said and done, at the end of the day, my life is between me and my God. When I pray to Him, there is no “organization”…it’s just me and Him, and that’s all either one of us cares about. When I partake of the sacrament, I do so remembering Christ, whether a boy serves me or not. I believe my faith in Him can work mighty miracles, whether I hold the priesthood as the men do, or not. Ultimately, it really is just an organization. Ultimately, He is the one I am living for. I hope that that is what I will teach my children. So much in this world is unfair for several groups, women being one of many (gays, minorities, children..these and others come to mind). I hope I do not teach my children to hold on only to the anger this can instigate, but instead to live a life of strength, courage, integrity and dignity, regardless of how unfair the world, or the church, may be.
So, to conclude this post-within-a-comment, I really appreciate the thoughts that are expressed here at D&S. I am glad there is a safe place to question, as well as what I hope is a safe place to sometimes even question those questions. Some doubt more than others. And I think that’s okay.
Nefilinda, I’m so glad you commented!! I really appreciate your comments and your honesty. I love that you see your church experience as being a very personal one between you and God. For me, the patriarchal nature of the church has become such a big hurdle to me. Being at church makes me feel uncomfortable. So then what?
Also, I don’t really think my husband (Mr. Cheap Seats) has seen our daughters failing to make eye contact any more than the rest of us fail to make eye contact with the goofy deacons (at least I don’t think he has!). I think he was just using it–and the dishes comment–as a metaphor, a way to make his point.
But maybe he’ll weigh in again. ;)
And yes, we also hope that D & S is a safe place to question. And to question the questions. Definitely!
Great post, Brent! Sorry I don’t have more to add. You articulate the problem well.
I’m not sure what to do about this. On the one hand, I’ve never felt the lack of opportunity to be a priesthood holder. At the same time, I was raised by a single mother, and intellectually it never sat well with me that somehow my mom was supposed to have the keys to do what was needed for our family even though she couldn’t hold the priesthood. Somehow, the idea I came away with was that clearly the priesthood as a thing can’t mean very much; that there wasn’t really a meaningful difference between holding the priesthood and not, at least in one’s personal life. As regards the administration of the Church, it is very obvious, and one of those things that kind of bothers me a lot. I sort of have this idea that Mormonism, if it were to reach its full potential, would mean that maybe one day a ward would have a Bishop whose name was Alice.
Interesting, Anselma. I think it definitely matters less from an individual/family/home perspective, but from an institutional perspective, it’s pretty huge. When our daughter was 6-7, she said, “Why do men get to do everything in our church?”
And that was not what she was seeing at home, but definitely what happens at church. That’s NOT to say that women don’t contribute because of course they do contribute tremendously, but not in visible way–and not in any official ordinances.
The women are to be served by the men is how I see it and as a former RS pres. there is plenty of opportunity to lead and have authority.
Bugonwindshield- I don’t think the disposal of sacrament bread constitutes ‘doctrine’. Policy, yes but not doctrine. Have I asked the Bishop for his handbook to read up on it? No. Because, as I stated before, it’s just bread. They probably have a policy about putting it in the garbage so as not to offend sensitive feelings of those who can’t understand that it’s JUST BREAD. Frankly, I’d rather it fed the birds than went to a landfill. I find it interesting how many people confuse doctrine with policy. They are NOT the same. Tithing is a doctrine, 10% is policy. :)
What is the definition of preside?? Since you’ve brought up the CEO example, someone who presides acts as a chairperson. This does not equal dictator. Having served as a Relief Society President a couple of times, having the opportunity to see ward leadership in action I can firmly say, yes I feel equal. And I’ve never had any priesthood leadership TELL me what to do and and tell me to clean up after them. Your comments come off as someone who has had a bad experience, who is carrying a chip on their shoulder. I’m sorry for whatever experience you’ve had with some imperfect people in your life that have led you to feel that this is the way things are supposed to work in the church. The Gospel teaches otherwise and my experience has pretty much been the opposite to what you present as the norm. You asked why I feel equal? Because the Gospel teaches me that I am and my experiences have confirmed that teaching time and time again. I’m not sure what you are asking when you say, “If you’re so equal — then why aren’t you “equal?” Preside is and was never meant to be a synonym for ‘equal’. Why would it be? You said, “How can you be an equal to someone who “presides” over you?” That’s like asking, “How can you be equal to a nuclear physicist?” The nuclear physicist and I know different things, we’ve have different experiences and we are in charge of different things. That doesn’t make me UNequal to them. I am a child of God just as they are, I am deserving of human rights just as they are, I expect to be treated with respect and dignity as I’m sure they do. You can be equal persons and not do the same job. Once again…mistaking the word equal to mean ‘same’. I do not want to be the same. Diversity is a gift from God.
The church is so clearly a patriarchal organization, it always surprises me when someone tries to argue that it isn’t. Here are some reasonable arguments: 1) The church is a patriarchy and that’s the way God wants it, 2) The church is a patriarchy and I like it that way (because it benefits me, etc.), 3) The church is a patriarchy and that annoys me, but there are a lot of others things that are good about it, so I’m willing to overlook it, etc. The argument that men and women are “different” and have different “roles” but are somehow equal just doesn’t pass the smell test (and it ends up sounding like mindless parroting of bad propaganda).
In the English language, there are certain accepted definitions that we attach to words. Individuals–or organizations–cannot simply decide that a particular word means something else because it’s more convenient for them. The word “preside” means something. So does the word “equal.” If we are talking about “preside” in an authority sense–and we’re using the word “equal” in the same sense–then if one individual presides over another individual, the latter individual cannot, by definition, be considered to be equal to the first. The language doesn’t stretch that far. Now, if what is meant is that the individuals (the one that presides over the other in an authority sense) are equal in “worth” (or of the same “value”), then that’s a different argument. Of course it can be argued that all individuals are of equal worth. But “worth” is not what we’re talking about here. . . We’re talking about how the church is put together in a structural sense, and it is, from top to bottom, an organization that is controlled by men.
You’re right, the church is a patriarchal organization, I don’t think anyone was arguing otherwise.
Do you know of any organization run by a group of CEO’s? Of course not, because nothing gets done. In a very practical sense there needs to be an organizational structure that allows movement and momentum as opposed to chaos. Now, you can argue that everyone deserves a crack at the authority of the Priesthood so that the entire membership is available for ALL positions. (Not sure how many men are interested in running the women’s program…and not sure the men that want to should be running such a program, but that’s perhaps another discussion.)
Believers will argue that the church, structurally is run by Christ – a man. Perhaps that’s where the problem starts. :)
The church *is* kind of run by a group of CEO’s though.
From what you’re saying, a group of CEO’s is fine, as long as none of them are women, because then, “nothing will get done”.
I love the gospel. I love our leaders, but I’ll still go with #3- I don’t think we have God’s will totally figured out yet on this one.
Yeah–I can’t wrap my brain around the idea that the current organization of the church is the way god wants it to be. If that is the case, then that’s not the kind of god I want to believe in.
I think god is bigger/better than that. I think god wants us to set up a system where people really are equal–not where they just have “equal” roles, but where one gender “presides” over the other. Honestly, why would believe in that kind of a god? I’m asking sincerely.
I’m with Allie on #3. And all large corporations are run by a board of directors to whom the CEO is beholden (along with the shareholders). This statement really resonated for me: “She is not part of the framework of things, although she must find a way to attach herself to it.” As women, we are entirely in a man-run framework. Even talks ostensibly to or about women are essentially written for men with a male perspective. If there were no women, the church would go on without a hitch. If there were no men, not so.
Great post. Breaks my heart weekly.
Putting words in my mouth….didn’t say CEO’s had to be all men or else nothing would get done. I pointed out that not everyone could be a CEO, if everyone is the leader then organization goes to the wayside and nothing gets done. Whether the CEO’s are women or men is irrelevant to that point.
The concept of what the church would be like without women is an interesting one. It most certainly would not continue without a hitch, it would have to change rather dramatically.
I’m not even saying God cannot change his mind one day. However, at this point in time I can say that I’ve never felt like a second class citizen within the church organization and that I am fine working within the framework that currently exists. Should God change His mind, then I’d likely be fine with that too. Honestly, I’m too busy working on myself and trying to make changes there than trying to change God’s mind about anything!
@Mary, couple quick comments: 1) I truly wish that this statement were true at an institutional level: “whether the CEOs are women or men is irrelevant,” but unfortunately gender is ALL that matters, at least until all women are excluded, then other factors are taken into account, 2) It seems that you assume that God wants it this way–I don’t believe that, and 3) You seem to assume that when God wants things changed, he will just appear and wave his wand–that’s interesting, because I don’t think change in the church has ever occurred that way (it has always been a struggle for us to reflect God to the best of our abilities in our organization, and that requires that we strive to better it as we see fit).
The way I conceptualize God, I don’t believe he would be particularly happy with members that truly felt that what the church was doing was imperfect or misguided but elected to simply drift along with the status quo while they waited for change “to be announced from the pulpit.” That’s not a view of God that corresponds very well to the idea of “exact obedience,” but then I don’t think much of the exact obedience script. Personally, I think God put us down here to exercise our own agency, to follow our own conscience, and to do what we, with our individual 2 1/2 pound brains, feel he expects of us. Just my two cents.
@ Brent – I think you’re making some broad assumptions here about what you think I’m saying. First of all, I didn’t say gender didn’t matter, I said for the point that I was making gender didn’t have a part. Have to ready the whole sentence….not just the first bit.
While I may believe that the organization is as God intends it to be for now, why would you assume I think it can change at the drop of a hat? Every change that has ever occurred (big changes) has been done with bumps and problems, people being offended, etc. A change like the one I proposed would be no different.
I said nothing about drifting. I am busy enough dealing with what I am dealing with…I am not taking on the “Let’s let everyone have the priesthood” cause. Everyone does not need to be on the bandwagon….there are several bandwagons to choose from anyway. If this is something you are concerned about and willing to advocate for, that’s fine. It is not somewhere that I feel my focus/time/efforts should be at this point.
I agree 100% with your second last sentence.
Growing up I never felt left out of these things. I just thought that this was the order. I really didn’t care to pass the sacrament or have any of those responsibilities. I didn’t feel left out. To me it seemed like a burden. Do you think that some men see it as a burden too? Do you think that they want it more equal between them & women?
I now have my eyes open to how sexist the whole system is. This started when my boyfriend (now husband) would try to correct me on my opinions of the gospel. I felt that he tried to hold his mission experience over my head; I didn’t let him get away with that. I grew up in the church and went to seminary (he was born into it but didn’t start going to church until he was 16 because of inactive parents) I would have none of it, I stood up for what I believed in (as much as he complains about my stubbornness, I know we wouldn’t have me any other way!!) And now that I am going through disaffection he tries to do it again. But I continue to assert myself; assert my capable mind. I feel like I have gained respect for that (not only from him but from myself).
Reading this post really opened my eyes all the way. No young girl or woman should feel inferior in any way to a man. In the church all our talents should be utilized. Can you imagine a woman bishop? The wonderful possibilities……personally, I would not want these responsibilities, but there are many capable, intelligent women out there that the church needs to allow to reach their full potential.
@Sonia, great comment. Yes, there are many intelligent, capable women out there that are currently excluded from leadership roles in the church. . . and I think that that really does make it half a church. It’s not about aspiring to authority–that’s not a good formula for either men or women–it’s about utilizing the skills and talents of ALL members in a way that makes the most sense (and does the most good).
I can think of a few women that I really wish were apostles, for example–they have the life experience and the wisdom to do an incredible amount of good for the church as an institution. . . but. . .
Amen. This post really hits it home for me.
Please take my comment as a bit of tongue in cheek, but how many twelve-year-old girls look any twelve-year-old boys in the eyes at any time, in any setting? It is an awkward age of re-assessments and confusion, but likely not to the extent believed by the author. (And, perhaps it’s just me, but most of us are bowing our heads in reverence/thought during the sacrament, not shame or feeling that we are “below” anyone).
Honestly, if the men were not specifically designated to hold the priesthood and administer certain roles, women would do everything. So I am personally grateful to not be responsible for certain things.
While this post isn’t about me I think I could be. I am the elder of my dad’s two daughters, and currently the one with less faith. I really dont like to be a second class citizen, and it really bothers me. If I leave the church this will be the reason why. I am being affected negatively by attending church, and I don’t like it. I never will.
Women and men are not equal. This is a fact. It does not matter if this bothers you or you are ok with it. It does not matter if you hate God for it or love God for it. It does not even matter if you believe it or not.
The fact of the matter we are not equal. There can never be an equal sign between the genders.
There are different roles and different abilities. Whether this relates to the Priesthood, per se, I cannot say for sure, but to imagine that women must have the priesthood to be equal to men is silly. That will never make them equal to men. Nor will it make men equal to women.
Its barking up the wrong tree.
Chaz-
If you mean identical… well no one was asserting that they are identical. But no two human beings on earth are identical. Even identical twins have differences in personality and strengths. Since no two men are identical, and that doesn’t preclude them from priesthood ordination, I don’t see why women’s lack of being identical to men should preclude them.
If you mean unequal in the sight of God, as in God loves or appreciates the offerings of one sex over another, well that is simply a basic form of injustice. One thing we have been told is that God is just.
I can’t really understand why anyone would object to the ordination of women. Is it only because it is a change? Is it because you feel like someone is coming into the club and ruining it? Is someone taking something special from you because they want what you have also? I don’t really understand the resistance.
I have never coveted a priesthood office- Not bishop, or SP, or RS president, or SS president, or HT, or YM or YW, or Primary president. I have never coveted any office in the church at all. But I see no reason that those offices are better held by a man than a woman or vice versa. Just capturing a vision of both up on the stand, both making decisions, both having authority, makes me realize it could be wonderful.
Chaz, you have successfuly illustrated, in one short post, a number of the worst things that religion has to offer. . .
Wow, that Chaz comment is a fantastic illustration of argument by assertion.
“This is just the way it is. It is a fact. I say so. Therefore it is correct.”
I hear ya all the way. As I grow older/wiser, I realize just how much the women of the church cannot do/say/be a part of. I want to be a part of scouting with my boys. I only have boys and boys who have have an adult with them on their scouting activities due to their medical conditions. I would never throw my boys on a leader who isn’t trained, or really doesn’t want to be there, or has a million other scouts to look after. My husband is in scouting, but often cannot attend the meetings due to traveling for work. BUT I am not allowed due to being…..a woman. The shame. The horror.
In our Ward the YW/YM have always had a fundraiser to cover the costs of camps and activities, well. The YW finally got smart and kicked the YM/Scouts off the fundraisers after they realized they were doing all the work, while the YM/Scouts and their male leaders did nothing to help. They partook of the funds, but nothing to raise them. Women doing all the work while the men partake of the goods without helping is so wrong.
It really does hurt, knowing that you are kept out of certain aspects of your own religion simply because of your sex.
I had an experience at BYU that exemplified this for me. It was small, but painful for me. One Sunday, I was up by the stand to talk to the Bishop about something. As I stood there I noticed the young man (my age) arranging the sacrament table was having difficulty straightening the cloth, so I reached over and smoothed the corner on my side. He stopped and looked at me and told me that I couldn’t help. As if my very touching of the Sacrament table cloth might contaminate it. I suddenly felt so unworthy and shameful, simply because I am a woman. This boy wasn’t mean. But he was very clear that I, as a woman, had no place in any part of that Sacrament ritual or preparation. That it would be wrong for me to be. He seemed frightened that the very fact of my touching that cloth might have destroyed the sanctity of the Sacrament. It was sickening. And even thinking back, after several years have passed, it makes me both furious and terribly sad.
I know there are many people in the Church who do not feel as I do. They are not hurt by the divisions and the differences. But for me, it is extremely painful to be told I am an equally valued member of the human family, a daughter of a Divine Being, but then, in practice, to be segregated and separated and excluded. For no reason but because I am a woman instead of a man. It is incomprehensible to me. And very hurtful.
I took the time to read the post and every last comment that was posted. As well as the entire mission statement and FAQ section of ordainwomen.org. I wanted to get a strong understanding of the ‘hubbub’ before I got in to say anything. A few points I know from my experience in the Priesthood:
-Most women I have met do not want the Priesthood, nor have they ever insinuated in any way the same. (In fact, when talking to them on the issue they say they’d rather avoid the extra meetings, responsibilities and duties involved because they get the blessings independent of their having the Priesthood. They are blessed by it in periphery.)
-The Priesthood does not ‘bless’ the life of the holder. It is a mirror function. It seeks no glory unto itself and is there merely to broadcast outwards. A man cannot bless himself, nor does any role of Priesthood state that the Priesthood blesses the bearer. Service blesses the bearer. So, women having the Priesthood would, in effect, only affect the husband, who is already covered by his home teacher, as is each family.
-Not getting deep into Temple covenants but the message is clear throughout the whole of the issue that men and women are different. Different can be equal. 4+4=8 But two fours are different than one eight. Not having an 8 does not make two fours less than an 8. Men’s roles have been described by prophetic utterance (not just some guy spouting off stuff) that by Divine design men are to preside and provide. That’s their responsibility. Women nurture primarily. (Needs dependent aids and facilitation regarded). Note: Eve never covenants with the Father. She covenants with Adam. Adam covenants with the Father. Adam then falls, and all his seed with him. Now the seed covenants with Christ. Individually, and jointly as a couple. The man and women jointly and individually have to take upon them the name of Christ. Then Christ covers the issue. The woman are covered under their husbands, and the husbands are covered under Christ, and Christ is covered under His own name, and thus the whole family is saved, answering the covenant to the Father. That’s the order set forth. The idea of assignment, return, and report is thorough through the whole representation of the ordinance and very clearly goes from Father to Son, to servant, to man, to woman, and back the same way it went. No one is less or more in the level of service. It’s just the order of things. There has to be an order, and that has been the one decided upon. (Not saying I have found scripture stating the women can’t have the Priesthood, because I haven’t, [only that those who obtain become sons of Moses…but that’s a small thing] but that this is the way it has been set up for now.)
-Men do not know the initiatory’s blessings of the women, nor the women know the men’s. Some things are just DIFFERENT! We don’t need to know, they are gender specific. Most likely equal though. ( Every Temple President I’ve known always says the woman’s is better though…)
-Priesthood is given to save the children of men. I don’t see it as a necessary thing to have women have the Priesthood to do this. She alone would still not be able to be exalted without a husband, so this still defeats a plausible point there. So, with just one carrying the Priesthood no blessings are withheld from any party. (If this weren’t the case, Russia alone, not the feminist movement, would be the cause for a change. I’ve been told they have a 9:1 woman to man ratio in the church there due to cultural stubbornness. They could REALLY use some women in the Priesthood!)
-Certain duties may be done out of culture; stacking chairs, setting up, shoveling snow, making dinners, quilting, crafts, etc. All these things are done by both genders (I’m the crafter of my wife and I, she delegated that one over quickly!) but I think that the cultural norm for these comes from a sense of natural enjoyment. Men are naturally stronger, and it’s harder to shovel snow and move chairs, so men do it easier. Women seem to be much more patient and longsuffering than men, and I think do much better with the stress of child rearing and nurturing. (If you don’t think this is true, why do you think Sisters serve only 18 months and not 24? I suggest [with having seen Sisters work, and knowing my wife who served] that it’s because women can put more energy into emotionally draining activity, which desperately wanting someone to have the gospel is emotionally draining, let me tell you, and are so wiped out physically by 18 months, they’d get really sick to make it any longer. Men are not nearly so invested in their investigators, don’t get so wiped, and their bodies are anatomically designed to physically wear longer than women’s. I have seen a lot of Elders and Sisters, and most I think would agree with me.)
-Though I don’t see any advantage gained from women obtaining Priesthood (save the Russia-type circumstance), I don’t see any disadvantages to it per se. I might think men would find their role as obsolete. “She can do everything I can do and more! All I am here for is to go to work and procreate!” Which many men might be right now thinking “Finally! Let me out of those meetings!” But, who knows, given the chance men might actually step up and do their home teaching to best their wife. (But we don’t see that happening for HT/VT yet so I don’t think so…)
-On the issue of precedence, haha, actually presidence; it matters. Not of ‘who’, but that there ‘is’. I’m told once of a Mission President who decided, ‘Oh you’re both 10 months out, it doesn’t matter if there is a Junior/Senior companion, just get it done’. Well, it doesn’t work. Mary’s point of CEO comes to mind. There needs to be a head who is accountable to the leader. A junior acts under the direction (though is usually the more faith filled one) and the senior accounts to the District Leader the results. Does the District Leader not care about the junior? Of course he does, but his accounting is with the senior. Is the senior over the junior? No, he is the accountable one, not the ‘better/more preferred’ one. The Zone Leader from the DL and then to the AP, to the MP, to the Regional Seventy to the top from there… but all the servants are equal. Our stewardship has been assigned children to parents, wife to husband, husband to Quorum leader and up from there. In the realm of death, we will approach the veil and a spokesperson will admit the couple knowing both names, and the couple will enter. (Individually too I imagine, and I admit the imagery is conjectured from periphery, but I see no other reason that only the man knows both names. [ I dare think that people are so misled as to think the Temple is filled with sexist activity and such; if it were, then either a)God is sexist or, b)church is not true because the highest rites are sexist. I think the answer is c) Gender roles are specific and Divinely appointed and that our gender was decided as organized spirit matter long before birth and that there is something lovely and beautiful about the intrinsic difference of the sexes.])
In conclusion, I bet your excited to see the end of this novel right?, I see women seeing the need for Priesthood as the same as women seeing the need for makeup. Something is lacked and therefore must be gained. Yet, my wife doesn’t wear makeup (beyond her own dislike of it) because every time I see her in it I look sad and downtrodden (because it makes me so), and she asks ‘why do you look so sad?” Then I always get to say sadly, “because I thought you knew you were prettier than you think you are.” Makeup won’t repair feelings of low esteem or feelings of inferiority, the Priesthood won’t either. On the other hand, women walk around with makeup all the time and I don’t see it harming any one (except for those who need a few lessons in it…wow!) and on some it does some good. The Priesthood might do the same, but I’m not pushing for it, and I’m not really excited that women feel the need (how’s that supposed to make the men feel? “You suck at making me feel equal to you because you aren’t perfect in your stewardship over me so I think I need to step up and do it, like I do everything, because you suck…” At least that’s the message I would get from it…. I think women and men should get back to basics with faith, repentance, and seeing with an eye single to the glory of God, and we could stop competing over every little thing (and the Priesthood’s not little!)! Just remember the wife of Thunder. : )
It seems to me that most of the individuals involved in this “issue” have probably spent very little of their lives being hungry or having to fight to become educated, etc. … and I doubt they are spending much time focusing on those who are actually suffering; otherwise they wouldn’t have time to protest “injustices” as not being allowed to serve doing the job they want to do… I have a son who does this sort of thing too — he wants to “help” (meaning “take over”) when the job that I am doing looks interesting to him, but grimaces if, instead of letting him take over my job, I ask him to do something just as helpful but (in his eyes) less “fun” … of course, he is only ten and will probably grow out of this and end up appreciating the opportunity and ability to serve in any capacity. I hope for the same result for those going out of their way to find “problems” rather than using their time and energy to serve those around them.