Stuart started participated in Cub Scouts last year when he turned 8 (which is when Mormon boys start participating in scouting. We have our own troops and we kinda play by our own rules.) I was thrilled because all three kids could go to the same place at the same time on Wednesday nights-a rarity these days!
He has learned some new things, but mostly it’s just been fun stuff-nothing heavy duty. Just last week, for instance, they all met at our house for a rain gutter regatta. The boys all built their own boat-type structures and raced their boats in rain gutters-powered by their breath! So, yeah-not earth-shattering, but fun if you’re nine years old. It’s a really nice group of boys. The leaders do a great job with them, and I appreciate their efforts.
Stuart loves to check off little boxes and gets super anxious about following rules to a tee, so cub scouts suits his personality quite well. I do not love that part. All those badges and pins and belt loops make my head swim.
Still, it’s something he enjoys and looks forward to each week.
So, imagine my disappointment last week when I saw that the Boy Scouts of America organization had re-affirmed their policy to ban “open or avowed homosexuals.” I knew they had a policy prohibiting openly gay leaders to participate, which is a shame, of course–but for some reason, I didn’t think about their policy extending to the boys themselves. When I read their statement, I got a pit in the bottom of my stomach as I imagined boys Stuart’s age having fun in scouts, feeling like a part of a community, learning things about the American flag, patriotism, service, responsibility, teamwork . . . and then beginning to grapple with their sexuality and eventually learning that if they were honest and open about it, they would no longer be able to be a part of that team that they may have been with for 4-5-6, maybe 10 years.
Practical questions: Upon whose shoulders does it fall to actually kick a gay boy out of the organization? Is it the den leader? Or is it maybe some higher-up? And do they have a face to face meeting with the boy to tell him this sad news? Are his parents there, or is he alone? Or do they send him a certified letter, maybe?
Forget “boys Stuart’s age.” That could be Stuart for all I know.
I was sitting in front of the computer one night last week and Stuart saw this meme from the Human Rights Campaign. He asked what it meant. I told him it was criticizing the Boy Scouts organization who had just announced a policy that gay people can’t participate in their organization. His brow crumpled a bit and he said, “What? Say that again?” So I explained it again and then waited for him to respond. He looked confused. His lower lip quavered a bit. After what felt like a really long time, he said, “But . . . I thought boy scouts was all about teamwork and being nice to other people and having fun and stuff.” And I said, “Yeah, it is about those things, but they don’t want gay people to participate.”
He shook his head a bit, as if trying to shake the idea out of his head, and then wandered off.
I got distracted by some work-related tasks and didn’t think about it again until Sunday morning, when a member of the bishopric (local church leaders) stopped me in the hallway and asked whether I’d be willing to be a den leader in August when school (and scouts) starts up again. I was in a hurry, so I told him I’d think about it.
It took me about 10 seconds to think about it before I realized that of course I don’t feel good about volunteering in an organization that is explicitly (and proudly?) anti-gay. This is a no-brainer.
But what to do with Stuart? We would not allow our kids to participate in an organization that is openly racist. Is this any different? We don’t have the option-in East Texas-of participating in any of the organizations that have cropped up as alternatives to BSA.
Do we pull him out? Do we talk to him about it and let him choose for himself?
Have any of you ever faced a similar situation?
;
P.S. We also eat at Chick-fil-A-one of the best fast food places in our rinky-dink town . . .
As a long-time scouter the church needs to scrap BSA. The scouting program only barely meets its needs anymore and church scout troops are often the laughingstock of their councils. Plus what if a young man in the ward is gay? He doesn’t have to leave the church or quit attending, but can no longer participate in youth activities. The church really needs to create their own program aligned with the goals of the church and not misuse the BSA program. It just confuses everybody.
This breaks my heart. And I don’t have a solution. Sure would make it easier if the church would come up with its own program, huh?
In our lengthy family discussions deciding if we could let the boys join scouts we kept coming back to the same conclusion. In answer to our question of “Is it morally wrong for us to participate with the knowledge that the scouts would turn away our boys or their friends if they were gay?” Our conclusion was a resounding yes. Yes. And I tried to pretend we could do good from the inside; be a friendly face in the scouts, but reality says I would do nothing of the sort. Taking a utilitarian view of morality we still had the harder question to answer. “Can we still justify it? Does the benefit to our children outweigh the injustice to others?” That is quite the personal journey~
Carrie, wait! So did you have your boy(s) quit? I love that you said it’s a personal journey and that you didn’t tell me what to do (ha ha), but I want to know what you did! ;)
Yuck. This is a really, really hard one. Makes me glad I only have a girl (so far). I agree with Bob, the church wouldn’t ask a gay boy to leave. Why It makes no sense to stick with scouting under the circumstances.
Tough decision. You’ll have to keep us posted on what you do.
Ugh. My son is old enough for Cub Scouts in two years and I can only hope the church and scouts will have broken ties by then. I don’t know what I’ll do if they don’t. I have decided that I won’t accept a scouts calling, but my husband loved scouting and really wants our boys to participate. So I have no good advice, but I’m really sorry. Maybe you could talk to Stuart about it and leave the decision up to him?
My son turns 8 in a few months. My husband and I were just released as cubmasters and being in scouts for 2 years as a woman, with daughters who are scout age, really made me mad ;) I don’t like scouts anyway but this is just one of the last straws. I cant support it. I hope to find or create an alternative for my son because I’m sure he would love it, but he is also tender hearted and would probably not want to go if he knew the nature of the BSA.
I think the church needs to unaffiliate from the boy scouts, and I think it is moving in that direction. My husband was not allowed to be in scouts as a teen (his parents are a bit nutso- they thought it would be a bad influence (ie, it would introduce an element to his life they could not control)) and even though he was fully active, he might as well have not been, since scouting took over most of their meetings. So he has a bit of bitterness there. For me, the bitterness comes from my last ward doing “Friends of Scouting” twice a year during 3rd hour at church- where they literally passed a collection plate around and spent the entire hour guilting us into giving money to scouts so they could go to camp, because apparently the members in our area never had enough money and were a drain on the local non-mormon scout resources. *sigh*
That said, aside from the whole homophobic thing, I’d love for my son to be involved in scouts in a not-church-affiliated way. But there are other community programs we might get involved with that would jive with our family values better.
And yes, I still eat at Chick-fil-e too. I do feel a tad guilty about it, but… gosh darn it the food and service is just so good.
Heather, why do you not have the option of BSA alternatives – just b/c nobody has organized it yet? Maybe you can find a group of like-minded locals and get one started! If that sounds overwhelming, then you’ll just have to find a like-minded local who is great at organizing things. You can just gather the people. :) I have friends in KC who have done some of the alternatives. I know I’ve heard talk of Earth Scouts (bonus: it’s for boys AND girls!)
Heather, as a long-time boy scout leader (and an Eagle scout myself), I obviously have mixed feelings about this.
First, I’m no longer affiliated with the LDS church or scouts.
Second, I feel like I really provided a service to the boys that I worked with. I kind of miss that. But, I’m getting less and less tolerant of the intolerance of both the LDS church and BSA.
Third, the LDS church not only plays by its own rules, but some of those rules work against some of the stated objectives of the BSA. It was always a conflict for me. Whenever I taught adult scout leader training, I felt like I had to explain one set of rules for the Mormons and a different set of rules for the rest of the leaders. (I really hated that and I think it makes the church look bad.) Specifically, the organization of quorums as scout units disrupts the “patrol method” which is one of the founding principles of the Scouting movement. The quorum division also reduces the chance of REAL boy-led leadership, especially in wards with small numbers of boys. In my area, the LDS troops have the reputation (among other troops) as not being “real” troops.
I’ll get off that soapbox because I have a near book-length tirade written on that elsewhere.
I got the annual fundraising letter from our local BSA council this week. (Bad timing, coming the day after the announcement of the secret committee’s decision on gays.) I almost threw it away, but I’ve decided that since I know the local scout executive and several of the district execs, that the best thing to do would be to draft a letter and explain WHY I’m not donating. I think if I send this to the local council where they know me (and how many hours I’ve given Scouting) it will have more affect than if I sent a similar thing to BSA National or if I signed the various internet petitions (which I have done, anyway).
The saddest part is that the LDS church has a disproportionate influence in these kinds of decisions. I guarantee you that there was a General Authority of the LDS Church, plus their full-time BSA-LDS relationship manager on that “secret committee” that decided to retain the anti-gay agenda. Guaranteed. And, I guarantee that they were pushing for the anti-gay agenda.
During my last stint as scoutmaster my assistant SM wasn’t able to make it to the campouts, due to work conflicts. Of all the dads in the troop, the most willing to go camping with us (even though he hated camping!!) was a dad that was a closeted homosexual. At the time I was a closeted atheist. We used to laugh about it in the tent at night that if someone in the BSA hierarchy knew that a gay man and an atheist were supervising this camp out, they would probably have an anurism. :) (We are both out of the closet now, so we won’t be going on any more camp outs.)
There are a couple of alternative organizations to BSA, but BSA has so much momentum and such a privileged position in fund-raising, and current membership and mind-share that it is almost impossible to overcome it and run an effective alternative.
OK, enough weeping and wailing. I feel for you and the conflict you feel. You are hitting the tender spot where you realize that the Church you give allegiance to does not share your core values, and that’s got to hurt.
Thanks for your thoughts, Michael. I appreciate them. I read elsewhere that a now-out gay man was prohibited from going on a BSA camp-out with his sons. Urg. Terrible.
I’m curious about your comment that you think a Mormon was on the secret committee. (And really, what’s up with a “secret committee”?? Sounds fishy.) It would make sense for a Mormon to be included, but their position is actually opposed to the church’s, is it not? Right now, if you had a 14 year old gay Mormon boy, he would of course be allowed to pass the sacrament, attend YW activities, etc. But he couldn’t participate in scouting activities. So how would that work? Would local leaders be required to give him a calendar that indicated which activities were “church-sponsored” (because he’d be allowed to attend those) and which were “scout-sponsored” activities, because he couldn’t attend those?
Has anyone thought through what this would mean, pragmatically? Forget ethically or morally.
I would bet that most boys who have been molested by gay men in the church were molested by leaders and not rank and file gay men, so maybe they should just exclude leaders as a more effective step.
Regardless of the gay issue, BSA and LDS church scouting are at cross purposes to start with. BSA is “boy led program”. LDS Church is “teach obedience to designated followers and leadership to anointed leaders” and it’s not the same thing. In BSA it should be the boys’ program. In the LDS church the program is forcibly adapted to serve the needs of the church. It appears to be a scout troop, but really it’s an extension of the priesthood line of authority. It’s the bishop’s program and not the boys’ program. Then they add Duty to God on top of that and only the overachievers with organized mothers have a prayer of being successful at either or both. If they really want Duty to God to be the heart of the program they should just scrap scouting and add outdoor experiences to Duty to God and quit making the kids who aren’t bloodless little obedient robots feel like losers because they can’t hold both programs in their heads at once.
Excluding gays really seals the deal, because this is really not part of the LDS church program. This is part of the evangelical agenda, where you can throw a “fag” out of your church and he can just go to one down the street. He is not saved by membership in your church or your scout troop.
You throw a kid out of the LDS church and by our doctrine he’s damned to hell because he can’t get all the ordinances.
I just need to stop.
I get this will sound horribly intolerant, but I’m trying to think from a “lds authority on the BSA secret committee” point of view: there is a big difference between including a gay youth in church and ordinances, and including him on BSA campouts.
As I already mentioned, my husband was not allowed to be a boy scout because his parents thought it would be a bad influence. I’ve always used that as proof of my in-law’s craziness, but when I really think about it, I remember in Jr High my guy friends talking about what they did on scouting trips (and these are only the things they were willing to tell their female peers): skinny dipping, looking at porn, talking about girls and sex and other things interesting to pubescent boys… not to mention the anecdotal stories of mutual masturbation at BSA functions when leaders aren’t looking. In general, you get a bunch of pubescent boys together and there is likely to be some experimentation that may or may not include homosexual-ish activities. (On the other hand, I know plenty of “good mormon” heterosexual girls who french kissed other girls when they were 10-14 years old… so it’s not just boys)
Personally, I don’t think any of the above is extremely common, or the end of the world if it does happen. All part of growing up. As a mommy, I may not like to think about it, but I’m not going to keep my son locked in his room so he won’t get exposed to anything potentially harmful. BUT, if I were in that homophobic, protective mindset, I might think BSA campouts are a bad place for adolescents struggling with homosexuality to be.
Bob, great points. Yes, “boy-led” and “top-down authoritarianism” are kind of at odds with each other.
Heather, I think the “gay 14-year old boy allowed to hold the priesthood and pass the sacrament” is a straw man. (I’m not saying that you invented it, but still.) Like so many things Mormon, this would vary greatly from local bishop to local bishop. If a bishop were liberal enough to allow an admittedly gay 14-year old to pass the sacrament, then he would let the boy go on scout outings.
But, more realistically, if a 14-year old boy came to the bishop and said, “I’m gay” most bishops would immediately go into “I will fix you” mode and try to “preach him straight.” He certainly would not be serving in quorum presidencies, which would eliminate him from certain scout offices.
One of the dusty corners of LDS racial history is that a young black man, a member of the church, was in a pre-1978 LDS troop and was told he would never be allowed to be the Senior Patrol Leader because he could not hold the priesthood, thus could not be the president of the Deacon’s Quorum and the two positions (SPL and DQP) were held by the same person. I can’t remember if a lawsuit was filed, but this was an obvious conflict.
Today’s Church Scouting manual states that the SPL can be someone other than the DQP, but in practice it rarely happens. In fact, I’ve had bishops insist that the DQP be the SPL, even if that boy doesn’t like scouting or camping or has announce he will not go to summer camp (where you really need an SPL). Some bishops have a stated goal to let each deacon serve as president at some time (obviously can only happen with a small number of deacons). In a “real” troop, the SPL is elected, thus requiring a certain amount of respect from the other boys. And, in a “real” troop, the SPL is generally one of the older boys, often 15- or 16-years old and a Life Scout. So, when we went to scout camp and sent in our 12-year old Tenderfoot DQP/SPL they weren’t even in the same league as the older boy who had much more leadership experience.
OK, I’m with Bob, I just need to stop.
In 1974, the N.A.A.C.P. brought suit against the Boy Scouts of America over the Church’s policy of appointing deacons’ quorum presidents as senior patrol leaders in Church-sponsored scout troops.* The policy was part of a general plan approved by the BSA that essentially allowed the Church to merge the activities of its Aaronic priesthood quorums with those of its scout troops. The N.A.A.C.P. sued on behalf of two black boys in Byron Marchant’s scout troop: the boys could not be senior patrol leader because they could not be deacons’ quorum president, they could not be deacons’ quorum president because they could not be deacons, and they could not be deacons because they were black.** Two hours before a hearing in federal court, the Church announced that the policy would be changed to a new policy providing that the senior patrol leader would still be the deacons’ quorum president unless another boy was more qualified for the position. The N.A.A.C.P. was not satisfied, and proceeded with the case, accusing the Church and the Boy Scouts of America of acting in bad faith.** Eventually the Church was forced to drop the policy altogether.***
* N.A.A.C.P. Plans Suit Against Boy Scouts, N. Y. TIMES, Jul.28, 1974, at 44
** Mormons Pressed on Scouts Policy, N. Y. TIMES, Aug. 3, 1974, at 26
*** Armand Mauss, The Fading of Pharaoh’s Curse: The Decline and Fall of the Priesthood Ban Against Blacks in the Mormon Church, DIALOGUE, Autumn 1981, at 10, 20.
If you can handle the language and the shock value, watch Penn and Teller’s Bullshit! episode on the Boy Scouts. (Spoiler: They don’t like the BSA.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5I01DF0g1w
I vote for the new boys program to be pioneer based: beard grooming, 4 part harmony hymn singing, handcart maintenance. . .you know, stuff he will need in his real life :P
Having served in YM and scouting positions for many years – and now being an openly supportive parent of a gay child – I’ll weigh in with my two cents regarding some of the practical questions. First of all, in our church culture, most gay young men are terrified to accept who they are and typically don’t come to grips with it – much less out themselves – until much later in life (e.g., post mission). Coming out by age 12 or 13 would be extremely rare in my opinion (and after age 13, the scouting program – varsity and venturing – are really not followed that closely by most wards or the young men).
However, were a young man to come out while he was participating in scouts, or at least let his bishop know, I can’t imagine a bishop taking him out of the program. Like Michael said above, the LDS troops do their own thing and aren’t all that caught up in scouting policies and practices. Even if the bishop were very conservative and uneducated on the subject, he would probably seek counsel from higher church authorities as opposed to the BSA, and I think the church counsel would be to let the boy participate (as long as the boy was sincere about participating and wasn’t doing it for publicity).
That’s the practical side of it. But I am very disappointed in the BSA’s decision. When the ward does its annual Friends of Scouting fund drive, I will send in the donation slip with a big zero and a letter as to why I will not donate anymore.
The day after the BSA came out with this statement, my husband emailed our branch president telling him that he needs to be released from his calling as Cubmaster immediately, because he won’t support such intolerance.
Great idea, Bryce!
Here’s the question I ask myself. If I were a scoutmaster or a bishop — and I’ve been both — and I had a deacon who I knew was attracted only to his own gender, would I exclude him from the troop (meaning: all quorum activities)? That’s such a glaring, blaring OF COURSE NOT that not only can I not imagine myself ever doing it, I can’t imagine my current bishop doing it (trust me, I’m his counselor), nor my previous bishop, nor any bishop I’ve had in twenty years… or ever, really. I look back on my stake presidents – same story. Even my most orthodox, doctrinaire, by the book stake president ever (a personal friend before, during and after his service) would never have stood for such a boy to be excluded and would have intervened on his behalf if a bishop had tried. I am certain that I am viewing all of these men realistically and not through some wishful liberal rose-colored glasses, as I can be guilty of. The conversation “Sorry, Brother and Sister Jones, but little Jason can’t come to Mutual anymore” simply Would. Not. Happen.
What does this lead me to conclude? Absent a cruel hard line from Salt Lake City, with First Presidency letters and readings over the pulpit and a Handbook update, all boys who want to participate in their quorum-troop will continue to be not only allowed, but encouraged to.
Full disclosure: I had an abysmal LDS scouting experience as a youth, three frustrating experiences in as many stakes trying to be a scout leader with inadequate resources, and such a bad experience trying to make our next ward’s “program” work for my son that we finally put him in the local Methodist-sponsored troop. I strongly feel the Church should not pretend to run BSA troops, at least not until scoutmasters are self-selected Scouters and not poorly trained men “called” by a bishopric that is just desperately trying to keep the youth organization at least nominally staffed.
Dean, I agree, but since we are going over hypotheticals, let me ask you this.
What if you were bishop and a 14-year old boy outed himself as gay (SSA, whatever), was open about it and allowed to participate, BUT, the parents of another 14-year old boy told you that they would not allow their son to participate in a camp out with an openly gay boy?
In my book that’s a chance to teach tolerance to the other parents, but if they were dissatisfied and went to the local BSA council, then the real clash would begin. Just hypothetically speaking, of course….
So you think the church will/would just turn a blind eye to the BSA policy? Why do we need the connection to BSA, then? If we don’t follow their rules and we just do our own thing, what do we gain from continuing to be linked to them?
I think that scouting no longer has a place in the church. I think that the Duty to God program should be the only young men’s program. We should not mix Babylon with Zion. Actually, I think we are sadly very far from living in a Zion like society, but we should at least hold fast to the program of the priesthood and not feel tempted to think a worldly program can somehow add to what we already have. The young Women’s program and their girls camp is fantastic. There is no reason at all the Young Men’s program can’t be run the same way. We should also not be intimidated to speak our minds in front of our leadership. I actually hold a leadership position in the church and appreciate when members are honest and forthright with their feelings. Rejecting Babylon and all of its evil influences should be the goal of every Latter Day Saint.
I keep hearing this argument that it has nothing to do with homosexuality but instead about safety and protection for both leaders and BSA members. In other words, it’s only natural to ban homosexual members and leaders from participation because they would constantly be tempted and uncomfortable on campouts and other activities. As an example, people say, “Well, no one would want an adult, heterosexual male leader or boy going on a camp out with a bunch of young girl scouts that they may be attracted to. The same standard is put on homosexuals involved in activities where they may be in compromising situations with other members of the same-sex. That is reasonable, right?” Right. So, following that logic, its understandable that the BSA should have a policy prohibiting adult males from being leaders of young girls on a camp out, or would prohibit the practice of co-ed camping in an effort to protect both leaders and participants from being in a compromising situation where it may be difficult for them to control their attraction. Right? Oh wait, they don’t. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturing_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)
Co-ed camping is aloud in BSA. And both females and males and can be leaders of co-ed over night activities. Apparently, the policy doesn’t really have much to do with protecting and controlling attraction but has everything to do with just keeping gays out.
I apologize for the snarkiness, maybe someone can help me see this in a less snarky way…
Ugh. The underlying assumption of this argument (not yours, I know) is that homosexuality in and of itself has some sort of link to pedophilia, which it does not. Many men who abuse young boys and not young girls are otherwise heterosexual in their adult relationships. I’m all for rigorous background checks to keep kids of either gender safe from adults who may use the access of a camping trip to hurt them, but assuming that kids aren’t safe around homosexuals is what makes me truly feel for gay men – that has got to be the most demoralizing and degrading thing to hear, that you can’t be trusted around kids and that you are a pedophile.
And, incidentally, at young women’s camp it is *required* that at least one priesthood leader (who will in 99% percent of cases not be openly gay, unless you live in Mitch Mayne’s ward) is constantly present at camp. So we clearly don’t have a problem with heterosexual male leaders going to camp with young girls “they may be attracted to.” In fact, it seems necessary because girls need “protection.” Even though the vast majority of child sexual abuse cases are perpetrated by heterosexual men with female victims.
Hooray for logic!
I don’t know… my hubby and son are out right now prepping for Boy Scout camp next week. We’re slackers on the BS front… not worrying about badges and such, but just going for fun to be with friends. After having two boys go through scouts, I’d have to say that it’s not an easy program to do half way. The church/BSA really loves the all-or-nothing approach in this area.
I hate to think that all of the open-minded parents are pulling out of it. I think all of the progressive parents should just go rogue and put gay dads in as leaders and welcome any boys that are gay. While we’re at it, let’s include women and girls. For that matter, maybe we all just relax a bit about the whole program while we’re at it, and use it for creating a sense of inclusiveness and community. Until then, we’ll just continue doing our scout thing half-assed and be grateful that our current leaders are open and reasonable and that there’s nobody (that I’m aware of) that our local group is excluding.
My sons are 2 and 4. Change happens so slowly that I doubt that these issues will be resolved by the time my kids hit the scouting age, so I’ve been putting a LOT of thought into this. I grew up being excluded, and honestly, it sucks. All anyone wants is to be loved for who they are, and not feel forced to conform to someone else’s idea of what is “normal”. People like that are called Bullies, and I refuse to teach my sons to be Bullies.
So no, we won’t be apart of the BSA. This means they’ll likely be excluded from church activities, seeing as the BSA and young men’s programs are so closely intertwined. That is a hurdle we will jump when we get to it.
And we won’t be eating at Chick-fil-A anymore. Taco Bell is right across the street, and they’re cheaper. And this Taco Bell has excellent service, as well.
So glad I’m Canadian. Apparently here, Boy Scouts have a different policy.
I just heard about this:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120720/NEWS/307200038/Navigators-Gay-scouts-welcome
EARTH SCOUTS!!! What a great idea!!! I want to be a part of that..or help start it! I always HATED that the boys got to do cool adventure stuff and hiking and backpacking and the girls did stoopid camp stuff with cutesy themes. Tough choice!
thanks!