The Sanctuary may seem like an unusual place to discuss Facebook status post trends, but recently, I was so disturbed by a word art image being shared and “liked” on FB walls that I wanted to analyze the harmful subtexts of this image in light of our charge to love one another. I even did a little FB stalking to find out what I could about the image and its creator. I have no idea how many people have seen the picture, but when I traced back the “share” on the wall where I’d first encountered it, I learned that something like 1400 people had shared the picture. The 1400 approximation doesn’t even include likes or affirmative comments, of which there seemed to be many. What this means is that a whole lotta people, at least some of them Mormon, liked what they saw in the picture.
This one:
And I hate it, for varied reasons.
I dislike the damaging ‘self’ messages, for starters, that a young woman might receive from this visual argument (for that’s what it is) and its unpleasant twist on the Rapunzel archetype – a girl waiting up high, as a delightsome prize for the intrepid hero. He’s busy searching and experimenting. He is the actor in this relationship story, while the girl is only able to react. She doesn’t seek; instead, she is sought.
There is a subtext of consumption as well that turns my stomach, the message being that boys get to eat around, if you will. According to the ethos of this image, boys are allowed to sample the fruit on their quest. They are expected, if not encouraged, to gather, taste and climb. If we consider this apple tree climbing quest as an analogy for healthy development of sexuality, then we find a rather sickening double standard between the branches: boys will explore, girls will … ignore? Or else be considered a whore?
But I don’t just hate the image because it seems to suggest that girls must forever wait by the phone or because it seems to give boy s a weird free pass, or even because of its suggestion that the primary motivation of young boys in their pursuing of girls is avoidance of pain (when to my eyes, the primary motivation is hormonal, period).
No, I also hate the visual argument because of what it seems to say about our interactions with other people. So, in addition to the damaging ‘self’ messages, there are a few other worms in the damaging ‘other’ messages implied in the image.
I have observed on other occasions that some strains of this neo-modesty hypervigilance plant seeds of division and then bear fruit of judgment. I’m catching a whiff of that fruit of judgment under this Facebook apple tree – and I don’t like what I smell! Don’t sit under the apple tree indeed! This word art image seems to be telling girls that they should perch at the top of the tree, waiting for boys, while also looking down, literally, on the other girls they know. Is there a cat in that tree too?
A girl who doesn’t have quite the social life she desires could easily label a more socially active girl as “rotten,” which appears to be a euphemism for “promiscuous” – never mind that the boys who work their way through the heaps of “rotten fruit” are still considered desirable by the time they reache the tip top branches. So even though the picture encourages girls to believe themselves amazing, it also encourages girls to believe other girls … as less than amazing and tells that boys can STILL be amazing, even if they’ve eaten so much fruit and drunk so much cider that they are now mistaken for Johnny Appleseed. Something is indeed rotten.
The LDS young women program is built around seven color-coded and inspiring values. Of course we want to encourage girls to gain knowledge and perform good works, two of my favorite values. We also urge them to think of themselves as divine in nature and as possessing great individual worth. Such values can and do build self-esteem, and I appreciate the many hours that young women leaders spend making bookmarks and posters and teaching lessons to keep these values in the minds of the young women.
I do not understand, however, how anyone who is currently serving or has ever worked with or parented young women or has ever been a young woman could appreciate the message of the apple tree image, because even though the picture shouts for girls to see themselves as beautifully shiny apples waiting juicily amidst high branches, it also snarls that any apples or girls not on those high branches (read: not like “us”) are bruised, damaged, worthless – “easy” garbage, in other words.
It cannot be wise or keeping with the spirit of the young women values to “like” anything, even on something as trivial as a social network, if the “liked” concept promotes competitiveness and ruthless people sorting. The adolescent years are tough enough; parents, leaders, people with access to WordArt, all of us need to be more mindful about what we’re really saying about ourselves and each other.
The scriptures are replete with references to harvest, seeds, fields, orchards, trees, pruning, the bearing of fruit, and on and on. Mormons cherish both the story of Eve eating the fruit and the glorious fruit envisioned in Lehi’s dream. This analogy does not deserve to share spiritual space with any of the above examples, nor Jesus’ parables nor Alma’s teachings on faith in the minds or hearts of LDS people. We can do better in our figures of speech, I dare say. (And yes, I know that the apple tree image is in no way representative of LDS teachings. However, more than a few LDS young women, plus their moms and leaders, plus men, according to my FB stalking, are looking at this picture, and too quickly “liking” what it says, without knowing what it says.)
Paul wrote in his epistle to the Romans (12:13): “Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.” My gender neutral updating and paraphrasing of that verse is that we shouldn’t judge each other or do anything to hurt one another’s spiritual progress. Anything like sharing that apple tree picture, right? Or anything like judging people around us as inferior to us in a misguided attempt to make ourselves feel better, okay? We should know better and teach better, especially those who want, as Paul did, to “live peaceably” as saints.
If parents and leaders want to encourage girls to delay sexual activity until they’ve met partners worthy of them, then teach them of their value without disparaging the value of anyone else. And if parents and leaders want to encourage those same girls to see themselves as amazing, then teach them how to create orchards and pursue quests themselves, instead of waiting around for admiration.
Thanks for this. In our first meeting as a new YW presidency we discussed how this type of analogy is not acceptable. We will have no wilted roses, chewed gum, butter licked off the toast, and now apple tree analogies. Our girls don’t deserve to hear this type of garbage.
I’m so glad to hear this!
Yay, KJohnson!!
There are so many other, better ways to encourage our young women. Glad to hear your presidency is aware of the damage such analogies can cause!
Why not share these analogies and point out how flawed they are? A little inoculation against judgmental attitudes?
I like this plan. It’s not a bad idea for girls to know that these attitudes are out there, but are not true.
Standing ovation!!
YES!
This image is also shared in pinterest and is disturbing for so many reasons, including the pain it must cause the countless women and girls (1 in every 4) who have sexually assaulted.
Pinterest should be used only for good!
And thank you for pointing out the pain caused to sexual assault victims when we are careless about the way we discuss sexuality/morality and so forth.
Great OP! I heartily agree!
High praise indeed. Glad you liked it! :)
I expect my ward will use it.
Interesting side story: A woman I know, in another ward, saw that the plant in her son’s room was dying. So she took it, repotted it, fed and watered it and it grew into a beautiful plant. She put a ribbon on it and took it to young womens to illustrate something in that vein. It was a marijuana plant. The police detective in her ward saw her carrying the plant down the hall, but thought she must be teaching a lesson about drug abuse. She was complimented by everyone, save one, in young womens on her beautiful lesson. That “one” told her what the plant was. And the story made the rounds of the stake.
This incident sounds like a plot line for a new Mormon sitcom! Indeed, what we water will grow. :)
This story is fabulous, annegb! Also, glad to see you here at D&S.
(But even if she was teaching a lesson on drug abuse, she shouldn’t be possessing an an actual plant, right????)
No more food or flower metaphors–please!!! No more mauled Snickers bars, licked cupcakes, or picked (or unpicked!) flowers or apples.
Excellent analysis.
I think you folks need to lighten up a bit. (Just my own personal opinion, don’t get angry) I raised a daughter who is a wonderful wife and mom and active in the church–strong in her standards and convictions. I really don’t see this as denigrating to anyone. I hit the like button on this one myself. I hope that you all won’t use that fact as an opportunity to judge me as stupid, shallow or unfeeling. Perhaps it’s just because I’m a silly old man and don’t understand how girls or women think. But judgementalism cuts both ways. Are you ascribing ulterior motives to the originator of this particular image? Is that fair? Are you sure you can get in to their heart and intent enough to make the assertions that you do?
Mike – I’m not angry in the least. :) I’m glad you raised a wonderful daughter! And I don’t judge you as stupid, shallow or unfeeling, nor am I ascribing negative ulterior motives to the creator(s) of this image. My guess is that the person who made it was trying to create something encouraging for girls who felt sad about not having boyfriends or going on dates, for young women who were late bloomers. I think that the ‘cheerleading’ of friends can be wonderful – I have friends who try to encourage me in similar ways by saying “There’s a great guy out there for you”, etc. etc. However, my problem with this image is that the positive cheerleading message that was likely intended is now packaged in such a way there’s a whole lot of negative implications surrounding that positive cheerleading. I don’t think my assertions are based on claiming to know the thoughts of the creators – I am simply articulating the meaning I find in the words.
Fair enough. I guess I just read into the words that it is good to keep your standards high enough to only quality for someone who is looking for high standards. I think the person who created this contrasted the boys who don’t have standards with those who do. In my daughter’s case she kept her standards high and the man she married matched those standards. I just think the person was saying that one doesn’t have to lower standards to get a man, and if they do, the man probably isn’t worth having.
Mike, I can appreciate that you see the analogy for what it’s probably intended to be–a cutesy story that comforts and encourages girls who might otherwise become disheartened. I just have a thought, though.
Mormons love analogies, that’s fine, we all know it. But how about not using analogies that only work on the very surface? Shouldn’t we avoid analogies that, when expanded beyond the initial intended statement, actually say something really horrible? I guess I’m just advocating a little bit of linguistic responsibility here. Words have meaning, comparisons can teach really strongly–that’s why we use them in the first place. But just because WE didn’t intend all the parts about the rotten apples at the bottom, the boys eating around, etc.–doesn’t mean that girls won’t make the connection. So when the problem’s been pointed out, we should probably stop using it.
I honor your thought and your right not to use analogies you find personally offensive. I also have great faith in our young women and men in the church. They have sharp minds and are capable of using the good parts and rejecting the bad parts. This reminds me of Joseph Smith’s statement about the apocrypha:
“There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly; There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men. Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated. Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth; And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom; And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated.’ ( D. & C. 91 .) . . .”
I think as leaders over young women and young men in the church the incumbent responsibility has more to do with teaching them to receive and understand the Holy Ghost. If they have that Spirit they will get the good and turn away from the bad.
Having been a young woman relatively recently, Mike, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. It’s absolutely true that teenagers have sharp minds, and should learn to recognize the Spirit; it is absolutely untrue that we should expect to send them damaging messages like this and have them understand that we don’t actually mean them.
Crappy analogies do not exist in a vacuum. There are a lot of things, both in the church and in the secular world, that conspire to teach young girls that they are passive creatures while boys are active; that they are expected to do nothing more in life than sit around and await being plucked off the tree by their prince charming; and that this puts them in competition with other girls. These messages do seep in, and when they’re packaged along with something seemingly innocuous that is being handed straight to them by the adults they trust? That’s a bad situation.
Frankly, I don’t even think this is a question of how much we trust their skills of discernment–it’s just a matter of our own responsibility to be honest. The thing with analogies is that you can’t choose how they’ll be interpreted, or what they say beyond the tiny aspect you were focusing on. If you hand out part of it, you’re handing out the rest, too. And in this case, the rest is something that a lot of women find degrading.
Some good points. However, I guarantee that at one point or another you will fail to deliver enough information or the right information. Being human we sin or transgress with or without knowledge. The last time I checked we were sent here to experience good and evil and learn to prize the good. By all means take every precaution to teach right, but remember that the Atonement is designed specifically to cleanse us from our sins, weaknesses, pain, grief and sorrow. With all your teaching, teach the Spirit by the spirit and how to obtain and use it.
I agree with your last comment 100%–which is why, when we do know we’re giving the wrong information, we should stop. That seems pretty straightforward to me.
Mike, I totally agree with you. People WAY overreacted to this. I’m sorry, but some girls are easy, and the message is that we don’t want our noble young women to lower their standards, just to get boys to like them. Also, If I’m not mistaken, the generations of courtships past have included predominantly the man reaching for the woman. No I don’t believe that the woman should sit there and wait, but there is something in a man that wants to do the asking, the “chasing,” the seeking, and it’s wonderful. More importantly, it’s inherent. I didn’t get married until I was 28, and it was the times I was pushing too hard with my agenda that I messed things up. The men I was with wanted to do the driving. And I want them to, as well.
Sure, it’s a lame analogy, but my gosh people calm down. Go ahead and include a wee apple elevator if you want (repentance, etc.), but the fact is honorable men want honorable women. The people saying this analogy is horrid are saying that they think they live in a world where all girls are good. I believe they started out that way, but some have chosen to hang out on the low branches. It’s naive to think that’s not true.
Jena – I like the message that our noble young women should keep their standards high! I absolutely support that message! In fact, I’ve read some rather alarming articles of late about young women in college are making gains in nearly every area EXCEPT relationship equality, meaning, they “settle” for guys who aren’t their equals in commitment, education, intelligence, etc.
But why not just say that our young women should keep their standards high? Why bring other girls into it at all? I don’t see how that helps the analogy and I do see how the message of ‘other girls are bad’ creates some serious judgmentalism. I personally believe we need to do all we can to lessen competition and judgment between young women, not increase it!
And it sounds like you’re saying we live in a world where all the boys are good. Why is this analogy only about bad/good girls? That double standard leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It takes two to tango.
I agree, Erin, we do need to lessen competition and judgment between young women, but they still need to know that there are some examples out there that they do not want to follow. We still have to make righteous judgments every day –>http://lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng. That’s a talk by Elder Oaks. Negative things exist out there, and we need to know how to discern. Other girls have bad habits which does affect their character, and when I have daughters I WANT them to decide those aren’t the girls they’re going to hang out with. Be a good example, yes. Treat them kindly, of course. Spend significant time with them, I’m sorry but no. That doesn’t mean I’m not allowing for the movement of the apples up (yeah, the analogy really bites, doesn’t it? :) ).
And NO! Definitely not saying all boys out there are good. Nope nope nope. Sorry to leave that out, I was trying to be brief. I was just saying that like attracts like.
Jesus ate with publicans, prostitutes, and sinners. I’m not sure how to square his example with this rotten apple metaphor.
Jonathan, I think He knew their hearts (and His own) better than we do. But good call.
You know, where it suggests that some girls (apples) are just plain “bad,” that’s not right. I want my girls to always look at the good in everyone. We’ll just do our best to teach them to avoid bad habits. Right? RIGHT! I feel enthused and ready to do a “Readyyyyyyyy, BREAK!” :)
The rotten apple analogy doesn’t just refer to girls who are sexually promiscuous–it refers to any girls who date at all. (If you’re an LDS girl who’s not getting “reached for,” the girls you’re jealous of are not the ones who are having sex, but the ones who are dating, period.) Is it really fair to compare girls to rotten apples just because they’re lucky enough to be attractive to boys?
Teenage girls do not need more things encouraging them to be bitter toward the “lucky” girls, and that’s exactly what this does. (I’ve seen it happen, too–this apple tree story was used in a Relief Society lesson in one of my student wards at BYU.)
Of course you can say you don’t mean it to include them, that you don’t mean to say that some girls are just plain bad, or any of those things–but the thing is, that is what this story says. If you have to qualify it in twenty different ways to make sure it’s not interpreted the wrong way, then isn’t it time to just accept that it’s a bad analogy and find a different one to use?
Cue the theme from twilight zone – this analogy is just so weird to me. So far from egalitarianism.
… and so far from the way apples are actually grown, or so I hear elsewhere on line. :) Apparently the apples are yummy all over the tree!
So proud of you, Suzanne.
The part about the boys being too “afraid” to reach for these good apples is pure BS. That is rarely why guys will go for certain girls, and when it is, it only applies to a tiny subset of the guy population.
*NOT go for certain girls…woops
This is a good point. As rotten as the message is for girls, and as much as it grants boys the active role, it’s actually insulting to boys, too.
Erin is right that “the apples are yummy all over the tree” so to speak. Whatever one’s gender or orientation, different people are attracted to different things — and different people have different qualities they’re looking for in a mate. If you’re truly happy with your own choice of mate, then you should have no need denigrate someone else’s choice as cowardly or rotten.
I agree 100% with your last sentence!
By coincidence, someone on my blogroll wrote a fantastic dating advice post (for those who prefer not to “hook up”) that is almost exactly opposite the word-tree in terms of positive tone, message, and attitude:
I love this, Chanson!
Absolutely stellar analysis, Erin! I feel like so much stuff that’s passed around Church circles carries damaging subtexts like this thing does, so I really appreciate you taking it apart.
Also, as you pointed out in responding to Mike, their creators are likely (I hope) oblivious to the horrible messages they drag in with the good ones they’re trying to convey, but it doesn’t make their creations any less harmful. It’s ironic that in a culture that will condemn a movie for one bad scene, we’ll happily pass on things that are dominated by truly awful subtexts in a way that movies are not typically dominated by a single scene.
I got the idea for analyzing subtexts of certain *church* messages from a cool column about GC talk subtexts over at Z’s Daughters, actually! :)
Since Flora (Jessop) has a lot of media contacts, she was contacted by
Tammy Lietner of KPHO about a story that is breaking concerning a situation
similar to Susan Brock. Tammy wants to report on how the LDS church handles
abuse cases. She’s looking for people who have been in an abuse situation
and taken it to the Bishop or other Church authorities. They can keep it
confidential, with silhouettes and disguised voices if necessary. If any
of you have a story about the LDS handling an abuse situation you can
contact Flora at 602 373-0793 or you can contact Tammy, email is
_leitner@kpho.com_ (mailto:leitner@kpho.com) .
I would also like to add that Verdana is the foulest web-font ever created and anything written in it should be summarily dismissed.
Including Ikea ads.
Unless there is a sale.
This was a literal LOL for me :-)
Me too. Also, I went to check out ikea.com to see if they had any good stuff on sale. :)
Woot!
Hahahaa–hilarious. And TRUE.
tammy.leitner@kpho.com
That is a correction on the journalist’s email address.
My daughter
is not like an apple.
Nope, not at all. She loves to pick
apples, though. She does not take rotten
apples from the ground or those on low hanging
branches. “Where is the fun in that?” she says. No!
she loves to climb trees to find the ripest, juiciest apples.
And boys? She doesn’t like the lazy boys or the timid boys or
the unimaginative boys, all who harvest from ground. She likes
the brave, interesting, active boys who climb beside her, who
help her from branch to branch and who ask for her help in
return. And when they come down with their baskets? She
likes the boys who appreciate her apples and the calluses
on her hands, even if they may argue over whose apples
and calluses are better. Then they eat the apple in big
bites, juice running down chins and through fingers
before running to dig in the mud for worms .
I am pretty
Sure she is
picking
one of
those.
As a father of two daughters here is my response. Hope the formatting came out. If not squint and imagine.
Love it!
Ah, beautiful. Can we format it in a PDF and run it on the main page?
Occasionally I get a jolt out of what I read on LDS blogs, and have to respond.
This little apple thing reminded me immediately of something I had not thought of in, what, 36 years?
A talk in a BYU branch Sacrament meeting in 1975 if I recall correctly, a pretty young lady gave a talk, recited a short poem which I can recall word for word even today.
“A woman is a doormat
on which to be trod.
She keeps the men from going in
with dirty feet to God.”
I was appalled, and waited through her talk for her to refute this statement and talk about the infinite worth of every soul, man and woman, the different and similar roles of the sexes, our injunction to become one, anything to show she really did not believe what was expressed in this poem.
No. She subscribed to this line of thinking!
I am still appalled. This apple tree thing I put in that same basket.
How will our young women ever learn what is right? Glad my daughters have a family to counter the wrong influences in the world.
SouthernMan – that doormat verse is a jawdropper. Sometimes I just want to weep for the women of my mother’s generation, of my grandmother’s generation and the generations that preceeded them. :(
Rah, that was wonderful and came out just like a tree in my email version. How clever of you; I would love to do the same and talk about how all boys and girls, sons and daughters are different AND that is the way it is supposed to be; right? Fundamentally, girls are not different from boys and by that I mean, they have feelings both romantic and sexual. They are susceptible to temptation too; it is necessary for females to feel sexual desire to perpetuate the human race. Females are held up on some kind of disingenuous pedestal by church leaders – poor souls who get to have the priesthood to make up for the fact that they cannot ‘grow a baby.’
A young woman who is extremely dear to me was made to feel like a ‘giant pervert’ due to the fact that she had to answer in the affirmative to a question asked by her bishop; THE question: “Have you ever masturbated?” The bishop had to give her the boys’ pamphlet about little factories because they didn’t have one for girls. This of course only exacerbated her feelings because ‘obviously’ no other girls in the church were guilty of this great sin. She has grown up to be a wonderful woman and mother with a healthy sexual relationship in her marriage. She could have been overlooked if her husband had looked at her like ABC chewing gum, or a licked candy or a slightly rotten apple. This is pure nonsense. 98% of MALES masturbate and the other 2% lie about it. Females also masturbate; does that make us the undesirable ones?
We are all human beings and silly analogies just make matters worse for males and females alike. Miri said above: “I guess I’m just advocating a little bit of linguistic responsibility .”
I agree 100%
Oh my holy hell, Jean. Please tell me that this story happened in like 1842 and not in 2000-anything. The thought of a man asking that question to my daughter–and behind a closed door–seriously freaks me out. We’ve told our bishop that neither he nor his counselors have permission to interview our children without one of us present. No way, no how. Imagine what we would do if a school teacher or principal hauled one of our kids into his/her office and asked them questions like these. We would go postal!
“I guess I’m just advocating a little bit of linguistic responsibility .”
I’m grateful for how spot-on this sentence is. “Linguistic responsibility”… I’m going to borrow this one!
Me too!
This is wrong on so many levels–
(1) It puts boys down because apparently they go in for low fruit before they decide to climb the tree- probably because they can’t control themselves;
(2) It condemns girls who commit a youthful indiscretion before marriage as irreparably rotten in the way of an apple – really? – (whatever happened to repentance?);
(3) what about women who are good mormons and never get a husband – I’m not sure what this metaphor says about them;
(4) The statements made in this true aren’t not even true – it is my experience that young beautiful insecure girls are often the ones who fall into temptation – from what I’ve seen their beauty has also gotten them married quite often to a terrific RM despite their “rotten” status;
(5) I don’t want to get into what this metaphor does for sexual abuse victims and how it portrays women as just waiting for a man (-this has already been addressed);
(6) This is a sad statement of what we have to resort to this to boost our young woman’s self esteem.
Also, someone in the comments stated that YW can use the spirit to guide their way around this warped metaphor. I understand using the spirit to guide you away from temptation, but is it necessary to use it to figure out the misguided implications of a well meant metaphor presented at church? Does the spirit have time for that? Shouldn’t the teacher use the spirit to not present this image in the first place? If my daughter remains chaste, it is because of her relationship with her Heavenly Father and her own desire to do so – not because she is holding out for some man!
Actually, the whole thing reminds of Johnny Lingo. Remember him? How his future wife bloomed when he brought out the cows? I actually enjoyed that video when I was 12, but maybe there’s a reason it’s not being shown anymore.
Barb – I love your insights about the spirit. Yes, I want the spirit to guide … but not have to spend its time guiding people through weird messages AT church. Um, no!
“I understand using the spirit to guide you away from temptation, but is it necessary to use it to figure out the misguided implications of a well meant metaphor presented at church? Does the spirit have time for that? Shouldn’t the teacher use the spirit to not present this image in the first place?”
I laughed out loud when I got to the end of that last sentence, it’s genius. :) And it’s exactly what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. Amen, Barb!
Heather Holy Hell:) It was actually about 25 years ago, but I’m so glad to hear that you would not allow this to happen to your girls; it should not happen to boys either. Only within the confines of a religion is masturbation a sin. In the outside world; nobody cares. If men and women were ‘allowed’ to masturbate before the date, they might have more willpower.
Barb T; 1-6; totally agree with you.
Jean, 25 years ago is not long enough ago for me! ;)
And I didn’t mean to say that it wasn’t okay for my girls but WAS okay for my boy. It’s equally bad if I imagine my son in that position. Actually, that’s not true–it’s WORSE because from what I understand, it’s pretty much par for the course for bishops to ask boys about masturbation. I don’t think it’s common/expected for them to ask girls that.
Our son is 8.5 and so has only had one interview opportunity thus far. My husband accompanied him to the interview.
We’ve talked to all of our kids about how they NEVER have to answer any questions about their sexuality in those contexts. And that if anyone asks them about that, they are just to say, “I am not comfortable talking to you about this” and get up and leave. Hopefully they’ll never have to do that because we will be with them.
Sheesh.
Sounds like a few folks have an agenda here. Oh, and thanks for judging the 98% and the other 2%. So good to know that you can see into all of their hearts.
Hear, hear, Mike!
Mike – what agenda do you mean? And who do you mean by the 98% and 2%. I don’t think anyone here is trying to judge. I know that I just want my kids to grow up with the best the gospel offers but not be burdened down by unnecessary baggage about self-worth, relationships, sexuality, etc. When I was a youth, I learned some pretty damaging things that did not help me one bit in my adult life. I don’t want my kids to have the same toxic messages to unlearn.
I was referring to Jean’s 10/2o 7:27 p.m. post. If someone wants to disagree with a particular analogy, fine and dandy. I just think it is a bit presumptuous to generalize, or to assume what 98% have done or whether the 2% remaining have lied. I agree that all of the teachers in the church should strive to follow the same spirit that they teach in choosing teaching materials. I can just guarantee that sooner or later, in church settings or out, they will encounter teachings that run counter to the truth. That is one of the reasons why I would not have considered home schooling my children–they need to encounter and cope with such things to exercise agency and strengthen the ability to resist things that would lead them away from the Savior. If this was not so, God would not have sent us here. But he keep the lines of communication open, as we should if we parent in his image.
Mike, I like this idea and have used it myself SEVERAL times to explain why I send my kids to public schools AND why we still go to church despite hearing some things I completely disagree with in both places.
So there is value in it. You can certainly learn from bad examples or non-examples.
Still, it wouldn’t be my first choice. I’d rather have them encounter GOOD examples/metaphors–perhaps especially at church.
This meme also puts down boys by labelling them as lazy if they don’t want to climb the tree.
All sides of this conversation are ridiculous… Get a life, get some self esteem, its a word art of a tree… Oversensitivity is the reason the gays are rampant :P
So what do you have to say about your participation in the conversation?
I don’t know how old this apple tree analogy is. But, a decade ago I heard a different version of this apple tree story in an institute class. I’m not here to defend it–but it is possible that this teacher created it as a response to this apple story. He spoke of girls as the apples and boys as the consumers. And the boys could choose only one apple. The story goes that many boys selected an apple from way up at the top of the tree. They choose apples that were big and shiny and promised to be very juicy. But, when a boy took a bite of that apple and he found it to be green and very sour and dry, he felt surprised and disappointed. Then, there were other boys that looked all over the tree and selected apples that had fallen to the ground. When a boy chose an apple from the ground he found it to be very sweet and juicy and satisfying. So, this institute teacher continued to explain that the green apples up in the tree were too young and immature. Meanwhile the apples on the ground were older, full of experience and life that the tree couldn’t hold their weight any more and they made the most satisfying wives. I was an RM and getting riper by the month–think Big Fat Greek Wedding. So, this version of the story adds ageism. It worked for me as I lamented all the freshman err freshgirls around me getting swooped off by boys much older than them. Yep, these kinds of stories definitely oversimplify everything.
Thanks Erin for sharing your article and keeping this space so my brain can exercise. This was a nice Sunday night vacation, so much more enlightening than Sunday School.
I agree with you in general but I do think the original does have a point in that a lot of boys are scared of girls who they see as “above them” and girls have a choice to lower their standards and/or act dumb to try and avoid scaring off the boys or to wait for a boy who feels confortable with a powerful, independant, talented woman. I would want a daughter of mine to wait/search actively for such a boy and not lower herself to appeal to all and sundry.
The girls who many boys class as ‘higher’ than them are the hot looking chicks. But, just because she happens to have been graced with all the good looks and sex appeal doesn’t mean she ‘puts out’ and is fodder only for the boys with lower standards. The analogy is useless and judgmental. How come Christians do not follow the example of Jesus who loved everyone; ate with publicans and sinners; forgave and blessed harlots and did not condemn the adulteress? Judge not that ye be not judged.
Young Mormon women who are very beautiful are used in the ‘I’m a Mormon’ ads as a way to attract positive media attention. A rock singer with a past is also featured. Has he been forgiven?
While I do think that some very valid points have been made, I believe this little apple tree quote has been taken WAY out of context. About ten years ago (when I was still in Young Women), the mother of one of my very best friends gave me a framed print of this exact quote. I had plenty of friends (male and female), but was not asked out on too many dates. I was not “waiting up high” or perched with my nose turned up at others, nor did I think poorly of the girls who were being asked out, or who had boyfriends; however, my self-esteem would occasionally suffer due to the lack of interest from my male peers. When she gave me this gift her intention was not to put any other girl down, or to make me think I was better than anyone else, but to help me remember that I was/am a person with individual worth, and that there was nothing wrong with who I was or how I was living. I don’t know who originally wrote the quote, but I’m sure that person had similar intentions.
It is true that we should not attempt to make ourselves feel better by putting others down, but is it possible that this person had never taken a philosophy or psychology class, or studied archetypes or subtext? I know when I was 12-17 years old I didn’t completely understand that kind of stuff, nor was it on my mind. For me it was just a nice message that helped a struggling young woman. Who are we to tear that sort of simple message to shreds?
I’m glad that this helped you. I just think it could be redone more carefully to avoid sending the wrong messages, messages that the original author probably didn’t intend. I don’t think it’s a stretch to see this fostering judgmental attitudes that tend to happen within the LDS church.
Who are we???? We are the ones who read this kind of nonsense when someone posts it on the internet for all and sundry to see.
We were not you; we did not receive this from a caring person in the same way that you did. It didn’t arrive tenderly from a friend’s mother.
If you posted a letter you received from someone without a to and from; just the letter with no context, the online community would respond to it in a way that it strikes them.
We are the online community and the comments are based on the way the individual feels about the words; not the pretty picture or the salve that it was to you; a young woman. We don’t have that context. Does that help you to understand?
Jonathan, you are right. That is one of the valid points I was referring to.
Jean Bodie, benefit of the doubt is what I have in mind. I just think we need to try to see the good in people and what they are trying to bring and not try to sqeeze out all the negative possible, with or without context.
Let me illustrate the power of their technology:::
The gods create the perception of global warming by beeming heat into (cold out) of the polar icepacks, ultimately causing rising sea levels. As they can listen to your thoughts and affect your behavior so can they the animal kingdom, which is behind the changing migrating patterns of hundreds of millions of birds all at once, changing growth patterns for foliage as well as the changing weathern patterns we all experience.
Similarly, the gods can do this with food. They can beem sugar out of fruit, flavor out of shrimp.
I suspect like the biotechnology issue they use genetic engineering to accomplish the goal of bland produce to eliminate their culpability, but they are far too much of control freak rapist fuck degenerate shit to paint with such a broad brush. Rather it occurrs on an individual-by-individual basis. This way they can maintain conditioning/reinforcement and denial at the same dinner table.
Realize they can also affect taste, so their options are open. As with the retard, military draft and other examples from earlier, expect it boils down to an issue of culpability::If the gods don’t accept blame they won’t “make it up to us” and the decay we experience accelerates.
The gods are in possession of absolute power and take total control over proceedings on Planet Earth using the tools at their disposal to manage and achieve the desired perception and results in society. One of these tools is clone “clone host” fake people.
As people age the gods bestow wisdom according to their level of favor. All people, from the gutter-dwelling homeless to the chairman of the board, would achieve this wisdom at some level, and some would change their path in life. Because of the importance of the upper eschelons in Earth’s decay the gods used this tool of clone hosts to ensure nothing changes as would when their “reals” learned::A constant turnover of eager 20 year-old preditors ensures a fresh new supply of young people eager to “earn”. Ironic it is the youth who ensures Planet Earth’s stagnation, whereas society says something quite opposite.
Only through a historical event like this Situation is large-scale change possible. It’s not only an issue of the 20 year-olds learning they made a mistake with their choice but also of the gods still being willing to allow this macro change.
The gods used Christainity as temptation to repel people away from themselves. The pentagram is charecterized by xtianity as a symbol of Satan but ironically the reality is the opposite:::The god’s holy symbol. Similarly, the penticle, the reverse pentagram, is the real symbol of hatred of the gods. If those foolish enough to behave in this manner hate the gods then they should have the real thing, which will cost them in the end.
Don’t forget::::It is not a house of Jesus.
Christianity is evil. It is responsible for slavery of Africans. It is responsible for this wicked reject dumping ground known as the United States which was used to destroy the Old World around the globe.
There is a major difference between how Europe and the rest of the world were inflicted with xtianity:::Push vs. pull strategy. As a result, expect the “1000 years with Jesus on Earth” may be reserved for the Europeans and few others who were forced into this evil religion:::The god’s management of culpability defines the level of compensation everyone receives.
The god’s primary goal with this Situation was their minimization of culpability arising from inflicting us with the 20th century and/or liberal counter-culture. Everything I have taught is true. Now that this Situation is complete the disfavored have been taught. The gods are no longer/minimally responsible from this point forward, pitiful “reach around” compensation for ruining your Planet Earth. Their empty promise to me “We’ll make it up to him.” has been met with similar inadequate compensation in your case, and the gods will find a way to wash their hands of this obligation to me as well.
If they were honest how little they ultimately intended to grant us our sacrifice would have ended long ago, but they used this lie “We’ll make it up to them.” to further our misery, with absolution of obligation on the agenda for the future.
My experience is obscene. I paid everything. But at least the gods got what they wanted. Imagine how fucked up their behavior if they didn’t.
Rotten to the core.
The gods offered Clues about my importance, who I am. They occurr on a weekly, even a DAILY basis. The tip of the iceberg is listed below::
Air France’s Concorde
Christa McAuliffe, Concord, NH
Carnaval’s Costa Concordia
Concord:::In the “eye of The Beast”
Downey Savings
1998:: “He gets 4 years.”, “(His chance is OVER!!)”:::2.1.03 (SS Columbia) & 11.26.03 (Aérospatiale-BAC Concorde).
My miracle of Ocean Beach, witnessed by MILLIONS on the West Coast
Mt. Zion:::Slowly being eaten away until one day paradise is gone forever
Carry That Weight
Unit 731::TSUSHOGO
Zastava Koral
This is so typical of LDS people trying to make something profound by reduction, in this case reducing all the though processes down to one shallow and stupidly articulated poor metaphor. Perhaps the hope is that there is money to be made in the Deseret Books bookmark section, or in some store where they sell those ridiculouse cross-stitchings poorly written claptrap. What this does represent is several of the most common mistakes of Mormonism, that life is so black-and-white that it can be reduced to silly illustrations and metaphors, that women are more fragile than men, that women who have “strayed” are lesser animals than men who have similarly “strayed,” that men have more inherent rights and are blessed with a need and right to sexually explore more than women, that the so-called “priesthood” is a source of power and control, and that God is okay with the LDS-sanctioned tool of indoctrination.
A good parent and youth leader would point out the fallacy of this kind of thinking to other leaders and parents. A good parent would always clutch their child to their breast their whole lives and love them unconditionally, and then try to pass on this behavior to other parents. What keeps me at a good arm’s length from Mormonism is the practice of abandoning loved ones who have strayed from Mormonism, shunning those who have “sinned,” and dividing families along the lines of religion and disbelief, all the while proclaiming a “family church.” It is utter nonsense. If Latter-day Saints wish to be accepted as mainstream and have some modicum of respect in the world, they have to at the very least practice the accepted basic norms of Christianity.