So, I just finished reading an absolutely fascinating book called Forbidden Fruit: Sex and Religion in the Lives of American Teenagers by Mark Regnerus, a professor at University of Texas-Austin. The book focuses on how religiosity influences teenagers’ sexual attitudes and behaviors. (See the note below if you’re curious about his data sources.) Regnerus is very clear that the objective of his book is not to give advice to parents regarding how to handle their children’s emerging sexuality. Rather, the objective is to offer a “thorough, factual portrait of modern adolescence.”
After finishing the book, I decided I would put together a series of posts regarding kids and sexuality. This is an important topic for me since I have three kids (two girls ages 14 and 10 and a 7-year-old boy) who ask us all kinds of questions about, well, everything, and a spouse who is hell bent on speaking frankly with our children about, well, everything. And since I’m Mormon and my kids are Mormon, that’s my angle. I hope some non-Mormon folks will read it, too-either to say that your experiences were similar, divergent, or somewhere in between.
To start us off, I just want to highlight ten of the most intriguing and/or worrisome data points in Regnerus’s book (as chosen by me in an entirely un-scientific fashion) about Mormon teenagers:
- Mormon parents are the most likely of all religious groups in the U.S. to not talk to their children at all about birth control.
- Mormon youth were the “safest” during first sex: 92% used birth control compared to 56.1% of Jewish youth (the lowest).
- The percentage of Mormon parents who find talking about sex to be “somewhat or very hard” is the 2nd highest (29.1%). Only Mainline Protestants find it more difficult to do so-and only barely (29.5%). This is in contrast to 11.7% of Black Protestants.
- Mormon adolescents scored the lowest of all groups in terms of average correct answers on a Sex and Pregnancy Risk Quiz. Mormon youth got 2.43 out of 5 answers correct (although all the kids-religious or not-did poorly).
- More Mormon youth (79.7%) than any other group said their parents would be “extremely mad” if they had premarital sex as compared to 41.2% of the “no religion” kids.
- Mormon youth were the highest by a long shot in terms of saying that they would feel guilty after having sex (77.1%).
- More Mormon youth (27.1%) than any other group had pledged abstinence from sex until marriage.
- Mormons have the highest mean age of “sexual debut” (Regnerus’s term): 18.0. (Interestingly, the difference in timing of first sex between the most and least religious is just under one year, so not much.)
- No Mormon youth reported having a steady sexual relationship with one partner and just under 6% said that they had multiple sexual relationships (the lowest of all religious groups).
- Mormon youth had the lowest percentage (9%) who had had oral sex, as compared to 29.7% of Jewish youth (the highest).
Some of these things are good. Others, not so good. I’m curious about what you think. If you’re a member of the Mormon church, does any of this data surprise or worry you? Does this data jive with your experience? Why/why not? Do you feel that your religious beliefs positively or negatively influenced your sexual attitudes and behaviors?
Next week, I will dive into talking to our kids about sex. I might share the way Brent completely flubbed up the birds-and-the-bees talk with our 8-year-old daughter. Or to be fair, I might share how I clumsily waded my way through Stuart’s recent dinner table question: “Mom, what does ‘sex drive’ mean?”
NOTE:
Regnerus based his analysis on three primary data sources. The first source was the National Survey of Youth and Religion-a random-digit-dial telephone survey of all American household telephone numbers with at least one teenager between 13 and 17. A total of 3,370 adolescents completed the survey and an accompanying interview was conducted with each participating teenager’s mother or father. The second data source was in-depth interviews with 267 teenagers from all around the country (drawn from the pool who had completed the telephone survey). The third source was the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (or “Add Health”), which he says is the most comprehensive survey of adolescents and young adults ever taken.
I find these topics fascinating and so thank you for sharing.
Though I think it is good that Mormon kids are using contraception I wonder whether this motivated out of fear rather than a sense care.
It is unsurprising that Mormon parents struggle to talk about sex. The unsettling rhetoric on the sacred nature of sexuality mixes the idea that sex is a good (even divine) act whilst simultaneously situating it as something which should not be discussed.
Heather: a question: how does Regnerus define ‘sexual debut’? Full intercourse? The statistic on oral sex really surprised me… I would have thought this would become a popular practise when fear of parental disapproval is higher. It suggests to me that LDS youth are less worried about controlling the risks of ‘getting caught’ against, perhaps, avoiding guilt – for all varieties of sexual practise.
Andy–Regnerus uses “sexual debut” instead of “loss of virginity” throughout the book. He defines this as “first experience of vaginal intercourse.”
He talks about (and I SO am not going to give this justice in a 3 sentence comment) a new “middle-class morality” in which some kids are avoiding vaginal intercourse because it has the potential to de-rail their lives. For a girl (obviously), getting pregnant will get in the way of college/employment/social opportunities, so it’s less about morality than it is about practical concerns. ??
Unparalleled accuracy, uenquvioacl clarity, and undeniable importance!
This post has popped up in my FB news feed alongside what looks like an LDS-originating group, ‘Voices for Virtue’. ( http://www.facebook.com/voicesforvirtue ). It’s interested me to think of the two side by side. The site is very non-descript, and doesn’t seem to contain any specific information or mission statement: just a really general sense of ‘speaking up for virtue’. I think this is illustrative of the very general and unhelpful way that messages about sex are shared in LDS communities. ‘Modesty’, ‘virtue’, or ‘cleanliness’ are loaded and confusing terms, which give a very unclear message where clarity is needed.
These statistics cut through to some very real issues that should be addressed in our community: thanks for this post, Heather!
Confession: I can’t look at the link you provided. It will make me too annoyed/mad, I’m afraid.
Now that “virtue” has been added as an official YW value, I’m even more curious about what that means. And why was it added as a focus for the YW only? Does that mean the YM need not worry about being virtuous? What does it look like to be a virtuous young man? And why do we care more about virtuous young women than virtuous young men?
The use of ‘virtue’ as a synonym for female ‘virginity’ has a long history, but I wonder how widely it’s used in this way outside of LDS circles – ? It implies something like the metaphor of the woman’s ‘flower’ that is to be defended at all costs. In this tradition – I believe – there’s no male equivalent. It’s a hugely sexist set of ideas that encourages the polarisation of women into virgin/whore binaries – which, I would imagine – will align with the ‘faithful’/’unfaithful’, or Saints/’the World’ categories, as seen by the church community.
Andy, you mean like this little gem from McKay? Wowza!
“Girls, the flower by the roadside, that catches the dust of every traveler is not the one to be admired, and is seldom if ever plucked; but the one blooming away up on the hillside, protected by a perpendicular cliff is the flower with the virgin perfume, the one the boy will almost risk his life to possess.
Mere outside adornment may please the sense of many superficial admirers; the adornment of the soul and the chastity of true womanhood will awaken in the soul of true manhood enduring love, that eternal principle which some day will redeem the world.”
SO much wrong with that quote!
‘Perpendicular cliff’ LOL
I LOVE the photo used for this piece. Can you tell me where I can find it, who the artist is, etc.?
Kate, it’s called “Garden of Earthly Delights” by Hieronymus Bosch–a Flemish painter, I believe. It’s housed at the Prado in Madrid. I saw it while on study abroad in Madrid. It’s actually a big panel–this is just a piece of it.
I dislike the quote for the implication about boys as well … they’re supposed to be willing to nearly risk their lives for the most beautiful = pure girl? Ugggggggggh.
Am I reading it wrong, or do the first two statistics not jive? Could we infer that not talking to our kids about sex is actually a good thing in terms of lowering teen pregnancy? ;)
You’re right, Corktree. I believe the author’s analysis was that Mormon teens were less likely to “stumble” into a first sexual experience and therefore be unprepared with regard to protection. I’ll come back tonight and clarify further.
OMG Heather – that quote was posted in my apartment at BYU. It made me uncomfortable then and makes me laugh now. But the implications are serious… women are to be possessed, and should look and ‘smell’ like virgins? We’ll only deserve romantic love if we dress up in our virginity to attrack the right guy? Ick. The romanticization (not a word) of the idea that ‘true love’ will a. redeem the world and b. is only possible between a ‘true man’ and a virgin ‘girl’ is very mid-century/Disney-esque (also not a word).
As for the book, I’m dying to read it and will upload to my kindle. Glad you are doing a series so the conversation can continue.
I found this blog and data very interesting. I am Mormon and I am very open in my views about sexuality regardless of the fact that I was a virgin when I married and I have been with the same man for 34 years. . I have three grown children and six grandchildren just to let you know where I am on this road. When my children were growing up I was very open about sex, We talked about everything from morning erections to how babies were really made which caused my son then in third grade to make a drawing of a machine that could “hand” sperm to your wife when you want a baby because what he had heard about how to do this sounded horrible. I was open about everything that leads up to sex with the guarantee that It would lead up to sex. When I was Y.W. president in one ward I was fully aware that 4 of my girls were treading on dangerous ground. I wanted to work with our girls to prepare them to make choices and to use self respect to be safe. The moms in my ward most especially my councelors were furious with me and blocked my attempst at “keeping it real” with pictures of girls blissfully smiling in front of temples with no explanation on how they got there. That year my husband became Bishop and I was released only doing callings no one else wanted. In a years time the girls I had been so worried were here; Laurel president pregnant kept baby and lost college scholarship, another girl after a year of “cutting” had a baby and a drug habit, another girl continued to abuse alcohol and got in a near fatal car wreck at 3 in the afternoon due to drunk driving and another girl was so bent on only oral sex (because it didn’t count) that she got V.D. of the throat. This made me so sad. I felt we had let these girls down in order to protect their parents sterling reputations in our Ward. So much for that.
Gay! Very sad stories, Janae. :( I figure knowledge is power in this case.
Regnerus actually addresses this in his book as well–the belief that talking to kids about sex will CAUSE them to have sex. He pretty much de-bunks it–even though there IS a correlation between “sex talks” and kids having sex. He suggests that when parents start feeling like their kids may become sexually active or are thinking about it, THEN they start talking about sex . . . and then the kids have sex. So it’s not the conversations that CAUSE the initiation of sexual activity at all.
Fascinating stuff, Heather.
I wonder if the connection between items 1 and 2 (Mormon parents don’t talk to teens about birth control; Mormon teens nonetheless use birth control) isn’t that it mirrors what the situation was in the Church for so long. The Church officially frowned on it (or outright condemned it) but many members went on their merry way using it anyway. (So much so, of course, that the Church eventually changed its official tune.) Okay probably not really, but I thought the parallel was striking.
Items 2 and 4 are another interesting pair. So Mormon teens use birth control a lot, but they don’t know about sex and pregnancy? It seems like knowing about birth control would be central to knowing about sex and pregnancy.
I’m surprised about the percentage who had pledged abstinence until marriage (#7, 27%). I thought abstinence pledges were more something evangelical Christians were doing. Or maybe there was confusion about terminology, and some Mormon teens figured that they had been baptized, so sure, that included a pledge to follow the commandments? I’m grasping at straws, clearly. Are there Mormon teens actually making formal abstinence pledges?
Regarding item 10, Mormon teens being the least likely to have had oral sex, is it possible this is still a leftover of President Kimball’s view that oral sex was an unholy or impure practice? It’s been 25 years since he died, but The Miracle of Forgiveness will live forever, unfortunately.
I look forward to your future posts in this series!
Ziff,
Re #2 and #4–ALL kids did really poorly on the quiz, so I’m not sure that one’s as potentially interesting as it may seem.
I was also interested in the abstinence stuff. There’s a whole chapter re: the abstinence pledge movement. Does it work or not? If so, how? I think there is a difference between evangelical kids who “pledge abstinence” (and I’m thinking of the rings they use, purity/chastity balls, etc.) and between what Mormon kids do . . . but the result is the same, no?
Interesting stuff.
I find much of the LDS teachings on sexuality deplorable.
Virtue is now one of the YW values? Do they define it? or just use the word, and leave it up to the minds to figure out what they’re trying to say….
I look forward to reading more.
Jen, a penny for your thoughts. Would love to hear you share more re: what you find despicable. Pick a card, any card. ;)
And yes, virtue is now one of the YW values. Of course they define it for us! ;) Here’s what’s on http://www.lds.org:
“A Return to Virtue
“Now is the time for a return to virtue!”
The attribute and value of Virtue has been added to the Young Women theme. “Virtue is a pattern of thought and behavior based on high moral standards. It encompasses chastity and moral purity.”
The time has come for the young women of the Church to lead the world in a return to virtue. This is the time to be pure and to qualify for the guidance of the Holy Ghost. In the coming year, it is our desire that all young women and their leaders focus on the meaning of virtue, what young women can do to accept and act upon this value, and how this attribute can strengthen young women as they prepare to be worthy to make and keep sacred covenants and receive temple ordinances.”
I am interested to see where this goes. As someone who was raised in the Mormon church and found myself pregnant at 18 and thus married at 18, I have very strong views on this topic.
Janae’s comment is so true for the ward I belonged to as a teenager and the way different kids in the ward were viewed. As long as we looked like we were supposed to and answered the questions asked us “correctly,” we were good. What was really happening was hidden, until we had lots of kids in bad situations.
#6 is the statistic that stands out the most to me. That number is SO high! As an LDS teen who became pregnant, it was guilt and shame that led to my marriage- not the best way to begin a family.
Another thought- not to gross anyone out of course- Were there any statistics on masturbation in there? In my understanding of LDS principles, there is no “allowable” way for teens (or adults for that matter) to have any sexual release until they get married. Does this not lead to other societal problems as well?
@Emily–great questions/comments. I hope you’ll come back over the next couple weeks to weigh in!
Yes–the guilt stuff was very interesting and disturbing to me. I’m not a fan of using guilt as a motivator, yet obviously this is a huge motivation for LDS teens. Is it effective? Cringe–depends on your definition of effective. I was the most worried that the kids said their MOM would be “extremely upset” if she found out they were sexually active. You are right–guilt & shame do not (usually, I would guess) make for a strong foundation. Yet what does? Dang–I was 19 when I got married. Talk about crazy! But I did it because that is simply what we do. We get married.
He does cover masturbation briefly–and I don’t think that should gross anyone out at all. I’ll just say here that the LDS stance on masturbation to me is simply absurd. Pick up any textbook or go to any college class on human sexuality and you will learn that masturbation is 100% normal. It is insane to teach youth (boys especially) that that is sinful. I don’t know where that idea started (Miracle of Forgiveness? although maybe it predates that book), but I think it’s just crazy. (Did I already say I thought it was crazy?)
And the practice of interviewing kids–one on one–and asking them about this . . . shudder. Not gonna happen to my kids.
Regnerus mentions that James Dobson (of Focus on the Family)–who is QUITE conservative–actually has a much softer stance re: masturbation than ours. He also cites a Chicago study of human sexuality (1994) that noted that 29% of adult males ages 18-24 masturbate at least once a week. 59% of 18-24 year old men also said they felt guilty about it afterwards. So there’s that whole guilt bit again.
They should have asked who masterbates the most . . . it’s probably the non-debuting Mormon youth. . .until at least age 18 when they start having a partner LOL
Recently I had a frank discussion with my cousin who is the wife of a bishop and is always shocked when her teenage daughter (yes, plural) turn up pregnant. I mentioned that they need to be put on the pill since they have already had one baby before graduating from high school. She went into a long dissertation about how each “repented” and confessed on fast sunday to the entire congregation. I was actually thinking the shot or the patch. . . but if she thinks public humiliation is best. . . I guess she is right? But then again wasn’t that the method she used before, and now she is an early grandparent, twice? I think I would rather be honest and have them start their lives first, but putting the old head in the sand did produce some really cute kids.
I have to comment hear twice because of a lecture I heard once while attending a singles ward. The Bishop came to talk to the Relief Society and told us all (single women 18 to 30) that we have no sex drive so it was our job to say no to boys. I guess I was really looking at him during this lecture and thinking, your wife has never had an orgasm has she dude?
Oh, Angie, this is bad. Did someone award the bishop the Clueless Man of the Year Award?
Angie, I think part of the problem is that we are not taught about sexuality. We are just expected to get married and figure it out (since we of course have zero knowledge of these things before hand if we are “good” LDS teens.
The way sexuality is (not) taught in the LDS church is deplorable. Thank you so much for beginning this series, because it’s a topic that really needs some attention. LDS leaders and parents NEED to find a better way, lest our children continue down the confusing path that so many of us were led down.
My own lack of instruction on the value of sex has directly resulted in sexual problems for me and for my husband. In the church we are taught to avoid all things sexual, and to fear anything arousing. Then when we get married we are impotent or frigid or afraid. Or we can’t talk openly with our spouses about our needs. Or any other number of complications.
I don’t want my children to be taught in vague and nebulous terminology that is confusing to them. What the hell is “necking” and “petting” anyway? Well, now that I’m sexually active I could venture a definition, but I certainly had no idea what it specifically referred to when I was being warned against it. And the talks to the young men about masturbation are ridiculous. If you are an adult you usually understand the veiled references, but if you’re a 12 year old boy you’d have no idea!
Let’s have an open dialogue with our children. Let’s not be afraid to teach them what is what. And let’s especially not forget to teach them that sex has a purpose beyond procreation. The “power of procreation”, as sex is usually referred to in church teachings, only refers to one aspect of sex. Sex can also be unifying, beautiful, pleasurable, fun, healing, I could go on.
Whenever my husband and I have sex, afterwards he always says to me “I love being righteous with you.” And you know what? That’s exactly what it is. Even if I am on birth control and had sex without the intention of procreation, it’s still being righteous because it is unifying us and after all, aren’t we supposed to “be one”?
This does not appear to be a large survey. If there are 6 million Mormons (half inactive?), and 250 million Americans the 3370 initial interviews would be about 80 LDS unless of course there are more LDS householders with teenagers. 267 in depth interviews comes to 6 LDS.
That said there is obviously a problem with sex education in conservative LDS culture. I wonder how things would be different in areas where schools teach sex education, and the parents can teach the morals. In our school system it is an opt out programme (our 4 daughters all took it) and includes issues like self esteem and right to say no, but no moral content (unless you believe right to say no ect are moral content)
Well, 3,370 respondents seems fairly large to me, although I’m not a sociologist or a statistician. The people who did the survey can’t be held responsible for the fact that there are so few Mormons in the U.S., though, right?
I think the other problem with sexual instruction is the urgency for immediate marriages.
You aren’t really allowed to kiss or neck too much.
You aren’t allowed to have sex.
You aren’t allowed to live together.
You aren’t allowed to masturbate.
So you end up with people dating for 2 weeks before engagements and then 2 months later they are married without really knowing each other. You also end up with a lot of unhappy quickie marriages which are supposed to be eternal and then you aren’t allowed to divorce. I think this formula actually really works for about 5% of the Mormons. The rest end up really unhappy or settling or making do. It would be ideal to meet and marry the right person quickly – but how often is that likely to occur?
Angie, I agree with your sentiment, but am then also bothered by the fact that many people seem happy in arranged marriages. (Of course, I’m sure many are not . . .) So why would an arranged marriage work and a quickie-LDS-marriage either not work or result in unhappy or settling people?
I’m not arguing–just thinking.
What would be interesting to me is how these stats compare to Mormon Youth in Europe. I’m from Germany, and am now living in the US, and have to say that there are definitely some differences in how sexuality is tackled in Church. While I think that both in Europe, and here in the US, it’s mostly addressed poorly or inadequately, I’ve never heard, for example, a talk on not dating etc. until 16 in Germany. Actually, I cannot recall any discussions of such nature either, but I can recall a few rather open discussions on sexuality.
Overall, European youth seem to handle teenage sexuality better (from some articles and statistics I’ve read), so I’d really be curious to see how that’d compare. And while it’s only anecdotal evidence, I’ve not known anyone in my stake growing up getting pregnant as a teen…though I know a bunch of girls (and boys) who went inactive.
Heather,
My point about the numbers is that we are supposedly basing our discussion on this survey, and it looks to me like 3 or 4 active LDS families/teenagers would have had an in depth interview. Which 3 were chosen could make a great deal of difference to the result.
Fran,
Like you, my experience is not in Mormon heartland, though I have lived there for a couple of years. Germany is much more open, accepting, tolerant, and family friendly environment than Mormon country. I assume Sex education was part of school life, along with assertiveness training, and that, because of the environment of openness, parents would also be more comfortable with their sexuality and able to talk more comfortably with their teenagers.
Last time we were in Germany we went to the village spa/sauna/water slide/pool where most people were naked, and you could meet the girl /boy next door without their clothes, but strangely with their modesty in tact.
In my ward in Australia we have some very conservative people, some of whom seem to want to be part of Utah in Australia. We even have some who do not watch TV from Australia, but have a satelite to watch BYU TV. As these influences are in power we have lots of talks on modesty/ not dating till 16, and no open discussions about sexuality, though it is taught in school. I think most other families would be somewhere between Utah and Germany in their openness and teaching of children.
I believe also that the Jocks and cheerleader culture, which is uniquely American, contributes to the way American teenagers see themselves. When that culture is not there teenagers have a better opportunity to develop their self esteem, and ability to be their own self, and make their own choices without being compared to the jocks/cheerleader ideal.
Angie
There is a great pressure to conform in so many ways (agreeing with you). Perhaps we have to be teaching our children, and setting an example, of recognising when pressure to conform is being applied (often by ourselves) and decide to consciously make the decision that best helps us to meet our goals.
Menner,
I saw an article somewher recently that compared sex with your companion, to the sacrament (renewing covenants) – we now enjoy renewing covenants- similar, but more fun.
So, a question that this leads me to pose is:
Where do we find the middle ground? If we don’t want our children rushing into marriages so they can have their sexual needs fulfilled in the only LDS-acceptable fashion, are we saying we would prefer them to have sexual relationships outside of marriage? Where do we draw the line?
And in regards to the question of the survey having an “adequate” number of LDS teens questioned, it seems that we can each use our own experience to agree that LDS teens are not educated in a way fitting to our society. So, even if the research serves just as the jumping off point, it has sparked an important and necessary conversation.
What the youth thought was “safe” sex may not be safe in reality. Due to the lack of parental communication about sex, the youth may thing safe sex is washing you genitals before & after having sex, for example. And, my sister used to be a Librarian at a private High School in Salt Lake City. A number of young women had STD’s of the throat, so it was obvious there was a lot of oral sex there. Plus, some youth think oral sex is OK because “it’s not mentioned in the scriptures’!
@Mike–yes. I just read this article in the news a couple days ago: http://www.fox21online.com/healthreport/oral-sex-not-safe-sex
Yikes!
The idea of using the scriptures as a how-to book (or a book of what not to do) re: sex seems absurd to me. There is a lot of crazy stuff in the scriptures–the Old Testament, particularly.
I think that one of the problems of Mormon kids’ sex education is illustrated right here in the comments. We are speaking of the Church being the educator, not the parents. It is the parents’ responsibility to teach their kids about sexuality and morality, while the Church backs up those teachings in more general terms from the pulpit and in lesson manuals. If Mormon parents are expecting the Church to be the sole sex educator of their children, then, yes, that is a huge problem; vague terms and nebulous definitions. Not sex education.
Mormons ARE told to educate their kids about sexuality and are even provided with Church-published materials to help them out if they so choose. There is a booklet available through Church distribution that delinieates (sp?) what should be taught at what ages, starting at age 3, with age 8 being the ideal age for the full Birds and the Bees talk, then continuing on into teens and early adulthood with deeper, more thorough and age-appropriate issues and topics.
There are also sex ed books written by Mormons for Mormons. _They Were Not Ashamed_ by Laura Brotherson is a fantastic resource both for a married couple as well as for parents of kids.
As for masturbation, it is spoken against in the scriptures, particularly the Old Testament. Whether “everyone’s doing it” or not is really irrelevant to whether or not we should still be teaching against it to our children. (BTW, the Brotherson book *does* address masturbation — as a carefully-used vehicle for a woman discovering what turns her on, in order to help her tell her husband.)
As for the speediness of Mormon marriages, all I have to say is that Mormons still generally sleep together later in a relationship than anyone else, it’s just that they’re married when they do so. So, others get married much longer into a relationship (if at all) than Mormons — but they sleep together WAY sooner than Mormons.
I became a health educator, specifically because I wanted to be a sex educator, because of so many things that i felt were lacking in my teenage sex education. I DO see improvements since my time as a teen, and I’m working on being a good sex educator for my own children, though I’m stil lacking from what I’d like that to be.
Interesting perspectives, Strollerblader.
I agree that it’s the parents’ responsibility, but the church sure does get involved a good bit, whether we like it or not. My husband was told that it would be better to be dead than lose his virginity before marriage. I think Spencer W. Kimball did a lot to promote that kind of thinking. Yikes!
Re: whether masturbation is discussed in the scriptures or not. There is so much completely crazy stuff in the Old Testament that I frankly find it very difficult to take much of that seriously. So at least for me personally and for the messages I want to communicate to my kids, I don’t care one whit whether the OT says it’s okay or not.
I’ve read the Brotherson book. There’s some good stuff in there.